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  #1  
Old 20th August 2017, 09:43
Alain57 Alain57 is offline
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Exclamation Polish PZL-P24 losses on september 1 1939

Hello ,

On september 1 1939 five Polish PZL P24 were shot down by pilots from JG21 in the Warschau area. Can someone help me with the names off the Polish pilots ?
Thanks in advance.
Alain57
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  #2  
Old 20th August 2017, 11:41
robert robert is offline
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Re: Polish PZL-P24 losses on september 1 1939

P.24????
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Old 20th August 2017, 12:33
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: Polish PZL-P24 losses on september 1 1939

In mid-afternoon (between 1600 and 1700 hrs), the following Polish fighters units suffered losses:

152 EM:
PZL P-11 "white 2" shot down by 3/JG21 in Choszczówka - Łapigrosz area (Ppor. Anatol Piotrowski KIA) Choszczówka - Łapigrosz
three PZL P-11 damaged by I/JG21 NE Warszawa

111 EM:
PZL P-11 "white 1" (serial 7.27) crash-landed near Gocław after battle with 3/JG21 (Kpt. Gustaw Sidorowicz WIA)
PZL P-11 damaged by return fire of II(K)/LG1, emergency landing near Sulejówek (Pchor. Janusz Maciński unhurt)

IV/1 DM:
PZL P-11 shot down by 2/JG21 in Chotomów - Jabłonna area (Ppłk. Leopold Pamuła WIA)

114 EM:
PZL P-11 "8" shot down by 3/JG21 N of Warszawa (Por. Aleksander Gabszewicz WIA)
PZL P-11 damaged by I/JG21 in Warszawa area (Ppor. Tadeusz Sawicz unhurt)

113 EM:
PZL P-11 damaged by I/ZG1 in Warszawa area, emergency landing (Ppor. Jerzy Radomski injured)
PZL P-11 "10" (serial 8.70) damaged by I(Z)/LG1 (Ppor. Hieronim Dudwał unhurt)

123 EM:
PZL P-7 shot down by I(Z)/LG1 in Zakroczym area (Ppor. Antoni Danek WIA)
PZL P-7 shot down by I(Z)/LG1, crash-landed in Nieporęt-Jabłonna area (Ppor. Feliks Szyszko WIA)
PZL P-7 "white 1" (serial 6.110) shot down by I(Z)/LG1, crash-landed in Choszczówka area (Kpt. Mieczysław Olszewski KIA)
PZL P-7 shot down by I(Z)/LG1 in Nowy Dwórarea (Ppor. Stanisław Czternastek unhurt)
PZL P-7 "white 5" (serial 6.128) damaged by I(Z)/LG1, emergency landed in Zakroczym area (Ppor. Erwin Kawnik unhurt)
PZL P-7 damaged by I(Z)/LG1, emergency landed in Zakroczym area (Kpr. Henryk Flamme unhurt)

V/1 DM:
PZL P-11 damaged by return fire of II(K)/LG1 in Modlin area (Mjr. Edward Więckowski unhurt)

Main source for this is a list provided to me in 2008-2009 by a Polish searcher. As his primary sources, he used the book "Polskie Eskadry w wojnie obronnej" by Jerzy Pawlak, published in Warszawa in 1991.
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Old 20th August 2017, 17:25
Alain57 Alain57 is offline
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Re: Polish PZL-P24 losses on september 1 1939

Hello Laurent ,

Thank you very much for yoyr reply , this was what i got :

01.09.39
Ltn. Fritz Gutezeit: 1 1./JG 21 PZL P-24 Warschau area 16.55
2031/I R.d.L. Nr.43840*

So the pilot must have been Ppor Tadeusz Sawicz ?

Regards
Alain57
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Old 20th August 2017, 21:31
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: Polish PZL-P24 losses on september 1 1939

I have the following claims by German pilots in this battle:

Ltn. Fritz Gutezeit: 1 1./JG 21 PZL P-24 Warschau area 16.55 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. I - 1B
Ltn. Gustav Rödel: 1 2./JG 21 PZL P-24 Warschau area 17.08 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. I - 2B
Oblt. Georg Schneider: 1 3./JG 21 PZL P-24 Marki 17.10 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. I – 3
Uffz. Alfred Sturm: 1 I.(Z)/LG 1 PZL P-24 Warschau: 1500 m 17.10± PT: LG 1; I via Jim P.
Oblt. Walter Fenske: 1 I.(Z)/LG 1 PZL P-24 Warschau 17.10± PT: LG 1; I via Jim P.
Uffz. Peter Laufs: 1 I.(Z)/LG 1 PZL P-24 Warschau: 2000 m 17.10± PT: LG 1; I via Jim P.
Hptm. Fritz Schleiff: 1 I.(Z)/LG 1 PZL P-24 Warschau 17.10± PT: LG 1; I via Jim P.
Hptm. Fritz Schleiff: 2 I.(Z)/LG 1 PZL P-24 Warschau 17.10± PT: LG 1; I via Jim P.
Hptm. Fritz Schleiff: 3 I.(Z)/LG 1 PZL P-24 Warschau 17.10± PT: LG 1; I via Jim P.
Uffz. Heinz Dettmer: 1 3./JG 21 PZL P-24 N. Warschau 17.19 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. I – 4
Oblt. Albrecht Dresz: no (n.b.) 2./JG 21 PZL P-24 Warschau area - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. I – no

AFAIK, all Polish losses listed above are in Warsaw area. Just because the Polish could register the precise crash places, they provide other names, and the only loss listed as "in Warsaw area" is a damaged plane that flew back to base, so precise place of action was not registered.

I./JG 21 claimed four Polish fighters (misidentified as P-24) shot down (and a 5th claim that was rejected) against four P-11 shot down, so Gutezeit very probably shot down one, but I don't have an idea which one. By the way, the aircraft of Ppor Tadeusz Sawicz in my list is said ti have been damaged by I./JG 21, not 1./JG 21: first is the Gruppe, second the Staffel (1., 2. and 3./JG 21 belonged to I./JG 21).

I.(Z)/LG 1 claimed six kills and shot down 4 P-7 and damaged two others that did emergency landings. Given the short time of the campaign, it is fairly possible that the two damaged aircraft were never recovered or repaired and so all six kills are valid.

I guess the repartition of the Polish losses against one German unit or the other is linked to the type of German aircraft reported: I./JG 21 was using Bf 109s while I.(Z)/LG 1 was using two-engined Bf 110s, so identifying them was easy (at least far easier than for German pilots to identify the Polish types...).

By the way, PZL P-24 was the most modern fighter produced by the Polish aviation factories, but was never used by the Polish air force, that still used PZL P-11. According to Wikipedia (for what it is worth), the PAF was waiting for the next one, the PZL P-50, that never reached production. P-24 was used in WWII by Greece and Romania.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 07:30
Alain57 Alain57 is offline
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Re: Polish PZL-P24 losses on september 1 1939

Hi Laurent ,

Thanks once more for the great help.

Regards57
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