Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 29th April 2013, 12:39
GMichalski's Avatar
GMichalski GMichalski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Spain
Posts: 380
GMichalski is on a distinguished road
Boris Safonov real claims and german losses

hi,
i see this info in some webs but there are many variations in the number of claims, which is the official number of victories?
apart from that someone could confirm if these German casualties match their claims?

25+14? - 30+3? - 25+7? - 20+6? - 18+4?................

24.06.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 1 Ju.88A-5 WkNr 8173 R. Schellem – KIA 6./KG 30
27.06.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" G 1/2Hs.126 WkNr 3395 Herbert Kem – KIA (G) 1.(H)/AGr 32

*14.07.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" ? Bomber
*14.07.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" ? Bomber
16.07.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 2 Hs.126 **
17.07.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 3 Ju.87R-1 WkNr 5461 Rolf Bansbach (¿?) IV.(St)/LG 1
*17.07.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" ? He.111H WkNr 3749 Heinz Feldmann (?) I./KG 26
18.07.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 4 Ju.88
25.07.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 5 Ju.88A-4 WkNr 3387 K. Gunther + 3 (MIA) II./KG 30
*27.07.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" ? Ju.88A-4
*27.07.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" ? Ju.88A-4

05.08.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 6 Bf.109E-7 WkNr 3227 unk (damaged) 1./JG 77
06.08.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 7 Ju.88A-5 WkNr 2424 F. Meinhof - KIA I./KG 30
-6.08.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" ? 1/2Bf.109 I./J.G.77?? (G) **
09.08.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 8 Ju.88A-5 WkNr 3468 Heinz Burkert – KIA I./KG 30
09.08.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" G 1/2Ju.88A-5 WkNr 3351 H. Schilling (G) (¿?) I./KG 30
09.08.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" G Group Ju.88A-5
09.08.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" G Group Ju.88A-5
*23.08.1941 73 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" ? He.111H-5 WkNr 3691 G. Wilhelm + 3 (MIA) Stab./KG 26
23.08.1941 74 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 9 1/2Ju.88 (G) **
*26.08.1941 75 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" ? 1/2Ju.88A-6 WkNr 3467 Desconocida (G) (¿?) I./KG 30
27.08.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 10 Hs.126 WkNr 4262 Heinrich Steller – KIA 1.(H)/AGr 32
27.08.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" G 1/2Bf.109 II./J.G.77?? (G) **

*02.09.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" ? 1/2Bf.109 (G) **
09.09.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 11 Ju.87R-2 WkNr 5962 Hans Werner - KIA 10.(St)/LG 1
15.09.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 11" 12 Bf.110C-4 WkNr 2125 H-H. Hoffmann – KIA 1.(ZG)/JG 77
15.09.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 11" 13 Ju.87R-4 WkNr 5425 Gerhard Helwig - KIA IV.(St)/LG 1
15.09.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 11" 14 Hs.126 **
15.09.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 11" G Group Bf.109

17.12.1941 78 IAP – SF Hurricane IIB S/N BN233 15 Bf.109E-7 WkNr 4081 Alfred Jacobi - WIA 14./JG 77
31.12.1941 78 IAP – SF Hurricane IIB S/N BN233 16 He.111H-5 WkNr 4357 E. Roithmayer - KIA 1./KG 26

*17.05.1942 2 GSAP – SF P-40E BuNo 41-13531 ? Bf.109F-4 WkNr 10177 W. Pfränger (POW) II./JG 5
17.05.1942 2 GSAP – SF P-40E BuNo 41-13531 17 Ju.88A-4 WkNr 142062 W. Teichmann – KIA I./KG 30
30.05.1942 2 GSAP – SF P-40E BuNo 41-13531 18 Ju.88A-4 WkNr 1760 Siegfried Scharff – KIA 3./KG 30
30.05.1942 2 GSAP – SF P-40E BuNo 41-13531 19 Ju.88A-4 WkNr 430244 unk 3./KG 30
30.05.1942 2 GSAP – SF P-40E BuNo 41-13531 20 Ju.88A-4 WkNr 142068 Fritz Müller – KIA (¿?) II./KG 30

info from:
http://www.rkka.es/Otros_articulos/2...v_ARTICULO.htm
http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/a...v/safonov.html
http://cieldegloire.com/015_safonov_b_f.php

many thanks
regards
__________________
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland

Last edited by GMichalski; 29th April 2013 at 12:40. Reason: incomplete info
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 30th April 2013, 01:35
Juha's Avatar
Juha Juha is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,446
Juha is on a distinguished road
Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses

Hello GMichalski
On 30.5.42, Müller's Ju 88A was lost in a fatal take-off accident, but a Ju 88D-5 from 1.(F)/124 made an emergency landing because of combat damage and was written off . No personal losses. So 2 Ju 88s were lost because of enemy action but IIRC also both of the two other Soviet pilots flying with Safanov on that day claimed a Ju 88.

Juha
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 30th April 2013, 11:39
GMichalski's Avatar
GMichalski GMichalski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Spain
Posts: 380
GMichalski is on a distinguished road
Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses

hi,
thanks for the info
regards
__________________
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 1st May 2013, 20:08
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 825
Mirek Wawrzynski is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses

20+6 victories had claimed in 225 combat sorties and in 35 combats v. LW.
In fact he could destroyed between min. 3 or max. 8 LW's planes. Quite many as for Russian ace on the Far North.

See more in my article (it is Safonov's biography printed in 2010 in Poland, 100 % Polish), quite long story pp 18-26:

http://www.magnum-x.pl/czasopismasec/lw/1313


Regards,
mirekw

PS.
I do not make any scan from my edited work.
On p. 24 is a long table with these full 20+6 Safonov's victories and German losses of course.
__________________
Mirek Wawrzyński
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 2nd May 2013, 12:24
GMichalski's Avatar
GMichalski GMichalski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Spain
Posts: 380
GMichalski is on a distinguished road
Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses

Hi,
in this web i see at least 8 verified of 17:
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/safonob/safonob.htm

i think i see in a Christer Bergstrom book the same

3 of 20 seems very little credibility!

in my opinion the 20+6 are the claims of the logbook...the strange thing is the variety of victories attributed....30+3,25+14.....

regards
__________________
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 2nd May 2013, 13:44
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 825
Mirek Wawrzynski is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses

Amounts of victories depends of period and person who did this. After his death was produced by propaganda hero. Propaganda needed many victories and it had got.

Second I have written, that between 3 and 8 destroyed planes (> 60 % damage in LW standards) - 3 is a minimal destroyed but also could be 8.
Other planes could be damaged.

Next 14 victories had claimed on I 16 typ 24 (4x7,62 SzKAS - not very strong weapon in 1941), 2 on HC and 4 on P-40E.
Depends on how you describe the victory and claim (3 or 8 destroyed planes)?

In my opinion Christer Bergström's book RED STAR-BLACK CROSS; has too many errors many times written by me after I edition. He has produced a book which contain too many myths and untrue data. The information about Safonov's victories he had obtained from Yuryj Rybin resarches and this information are credible. I based on Rybin's works too.

Small correction to my data
Safonov had done 224 (not 225) combat sorties and fought in 34 air duels/combats (not in 35),
sorry with this mistake.

__________________
Mirek Wawrzyński
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 3rd May 2013, 01:05
GMichalski's Avatar
GMichalski GMichalski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Spain
Posts: 380
GMichalski is on a distinguished road
Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses

Hi,

thanks for the extra info.

I put all the information I found in this excel, take a look

thanks for all,
regards
__________________
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 3rd May 2013, 18:56
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 825
Mirek Wawrzynski is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses

This info in Excel most probably coming from Yurij Rybin researches with small errors done in translation into English.

Regards,
mw
__________________
Mirek Wawrzyński
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 4th May 2013, 18:00
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
Posts: 2,155
John Beaman is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses

Great work Guys!

This is why TOCH exists............
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 5th May 2013, 00:06
GMichalski's Avatar
GMichalski GMichalski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Spain
Posts: 380
GMichalski is on a distinguished road
Wink Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses

hi,
it´s clear that this will continue to be a duet..´

It seems that this list is the most reliable i see in internet...

can you explain these "small errors done in translation into English." please

kind regards

and also regards for you Beaman.
__________________
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces Johannes Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 59 15th May 2023 15:38
Dogfights over Sworbe 18-23.Nov.1944 questions. Part 1. German claims vs Soviet losses Andrey Kuznetsov Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 4 3rd February 2012 19:40
German claims and Allied losses May 1940 Laurent Rizzotti Allied and Soviet Air Forces 2 19th May 2010 12:13
Percentage of Verifiable Victories of Various Aces –Updates & Recommendations Rob Romero Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 25 9th March 2010 03:39
Percentage of Verifiable Victories of Various Aces –Updates & Recommendations Rob Romero Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 30th September 2006 10:05


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:30.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net