German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

[HGabor]

The other four Yaks:

5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP: Yak-9M, S/N: 2715382, engine: 415-2479, tactical No. white '100', piloted by ml.lt Grishaev, crashlanded and broke in the morning, during take-off on the airfield of Külső-Kiritó at 8:25, local time.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP: Yak-9M, S/N: 2715317, engine: 425-384 piloted by Svistkov crashlanded at Újszász-E, 5 km after being hit by flak (at least in report, but could be AC from below) at Jászberény. Pilot returned to his regiment on the next day, on the 14th.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP: Yak-3, S/N: 3518, engine: 422-174, tactical '35', piloted by Nikolaii Alekseevich Kireev was lost at Ócsa, Budapest-S, -SE. Six Yak-3s against 13 Bf 109Gs at 8:41, local, at 3500 m near Ócsa.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP: Yak-9D, S/N: 1815358, engine: 415-854, piloted by gv.st.lt Nikolaii Sergeevich Egorov lost near Nagykáta at 11:54 local. Six Yak-3s and 2 Yak-9Ds against 8 Ju 87s and 8 Fw 190Fs, covered by 15 Bf 109s. Egorov shot 1 Ju 87 and 1 Bf 109 before being shot down. Pilot landed on enemy side of the front and hid. 7 hrs later in the dark he got back to his troops who returned him to his regiment OK.

No more 5 VA Yaks on November 13, 1944.

Hungarian fighters (Szentgyörgyi Dezső zls. at Jászkisér-N at 14:48, Fábián István őrm., Krascsenics Lajos szkv. and Tóth Lajos hdgy. at Tápiószele-S at 14:47-48) also claimed a few Yaks, - probably with overclaim too. Chances are that smoking Yaks in the battles were attacked and shot by several pilots until their crash, or crash-landing and finally everybody got full credit for them. This resulted many more victories than the real Soviet losses. Not to mention only damaged planes which returned OK and got repaired soon.

Gentlemen, pick your own! :-))))))))

Gabor

[GMichalski]

hi,
thanks for the info HGabor,

You know something about this claim of Lipfert?

13,11.44 6./JG 52 Hptm Yak-3 9km südöstlich Jaszbereny 9km SE Jaszbereny 1245 4000 E J 150


best regards

[HGabor]

I do not know. There is no such permanent loss. Probably damaged, but not lost. What I know is that on October 1, 1944 (in 1944/4. quarterly plane/mechanical report to VVS HQ.) the 5 VA had only 17 Yak-3s. (The rest was Yak-1B, Yak-9T, -9D, -9M)

All of them were assigned to the 13. GvIAD. (149, 150 and 151. GvIAP) Most of them -if not all- went to the 150. GvIAP. On October 27, 1944 they lost Knut in Yak-3, S/N: 3912 (3929212), on November 13, 1944 they lost Kireev in Yak-3, S/N: 3518 (3529218). By January 1, 1945 5 VA, 6. GvIAD Stab. received Yak-3, S/N: 1712 (1729212). At this point 5 VA had 16 Saratov-built Yak-3s in combat service. Later they started to receive Yak-3s from Tbilisi, factory No.31 (eg. 310197, 310306), and their number kept increasing in 1945.

Gabor

PS: 'official' Saratov (Factory No.292)-built Yak-3 serial numbers had four digits: xxyy where xx was plane ID, yy was batch number. For some reason 5 VA added in their papers factory number (292) in the centre of the plane serial, so eg. Yak-3 No.3518 was in 5 VA documents '3529218', etc. They added the factory number just like yy153xx for Novosibirsk, Factory No.153-built Yak-9s, eg: Yak-9M, S/N: 2715317 (From batch No.25 it was Yak-9M) Tbilisi, plant No.31-built Yak-3s had six digits in their serials: 31yyxx, like: 310306, etc. The plane ID number was painted on the Yak-3s still at (both) factories to make the job of the frontline ground-crews easier, so the Yak-3s arrived already with painted tactical numbers. On the airfields they just applied the regiment, squadron markings, colors. Yak-3 S/N: 310306 was therefore tactical No. white '06', etc. In rare cases when 2 planes had the same plane ID (from different batches) within a regiment, usually they quickly added a simple extra digit to one of the planes, eg. one was white '26' and the other one became white '126'. In non-stop combat operations planes came and got lost very quickly, so there was no reason to use a complicated method to mark them. Squadrons sometimes overpainted the existing tactical numbers in their own color, eg. yellow, or red.

[John Beaman]

Gabor, et al,

You guys are doing a good job of staying on point of trying to solve claims versus real losses, instead of polemics about national overclaiming and political philosophy, etc. This is what this long thread should be about.

Keep up the good work!

[Nikita Egorov]

Originally Posted by HGabor

I do not know. There is no such permanent loss. .

It was Yak-1 of Mladshiy Leytenant Stepanov from 149 GIAP, lost at the same time and same location as Lipfert claimed.

[HGabor]

Thanks Nikita, here I have Kotlyar (гв.мл.л-т Котляр Александр Титович), pilot of 149. GvIAP (also 97. GvNBAP navigator) in Yak-1 S/N: 11186 on mission between 15:55-16:50 Moscow time, 13:55-14:50 local. As far as I know Lipfert claimed a Yak-9 at Jászberény at 12:45. Are you aware of any other 149. GvIAP loss at Jászberény around 12:45 with pilot гв.мл.л-т Степанов? I thought 149. GvIAP lost only Yak-1B, No.11186 that day. Any other details? Thanks,

Gabor

[Nikita Egorov]

Originally Posted by HGabor

Thanks Nikita, here I have Kotlyar (гв.мл.л-т Котляр Александр Титович), pilot of 149. GvIAP (also 97. GvNBAP navigator) in Yak-1 S/N: 11186 on mission between 15:55-16:50 Moscow time, 13:55-14:50 local. As far as I know Lipfert claimed a Yak-9 at Jászberény at 12:45. Are you aware of any other 149. GvIAP loss at Jászberény around 12:45 with pilot гв.мл.л-т Степанов? I thought 149. GvIAP lost only Yak-1B, No.11186 that day. Any other details? Thanks,

Gabor

Stepanov was shot down between 14.20-15.20 (M.T.) on Yak-1 42188.

[HGabor]

Thanks Nikita, this is great! Kotlyar was the only 149. GvIAP loss I got from TsAMO for November 13th. He was lost on the 15:55-16:50 (Moscow time) Jászberény-Pusztamonostor mission from the flight of 8 (4+4) Yaks at 3000 m. Flight leaders were gv.l-t Otar Demidovich Kadagidzhe and gv.st.l-t Vladimir Mihailovich Kalchenko. Kalchenko downed a Bf 109, Kadagidzhe a Fw 190. Kotlyar was missing in Yak-1 No.11186. (The 11th plane of batch No.186)
How many 149. GvIAP Yaks flew the 14.20-15.20 (12:20-13:20 local time) mission and who were the flight leaders? What opposition they fought? Any data on Stepanov's engine-serial? Thanks,

Gabor

Overall this just confirms that Lipfert's claims were very accurate. I start to believe that (IN REAL, not in office papers!) Lipfert (and maybe others too) downed many more planes than Hartmann... It was just a propaganda.

[GMichalski]

hi,
many thanks for your great info,

I am considering opening another post only about Lipfert...
HGabor i think you are right,
maybe Hartmann is more accuracy in first 100 or 150 claims...

but Lipfert i think +75% in all claims.....

regards

[Nick Hector]

Ok, so to be practical, here is what I have been able to compile about Hartmann's known actual victims and instances of overclaiming so far.
Can we all co-operate to correct and add to this list? (With thanks to those who have contributed to its compilation...)

Nick

No.1, IL-2 on 5.11.42/1205 over PQ 44793, Digora (Caucasus) @ 400m: 7 GShAP, 4 VA. No further details known.
No.3, LaGG-3 on 9.2.43/0655-0750 over Slawjanskaja (PQ 86722) @ 1000m: 66 IAP lost St.Lt. Ilya Vladimirovich Khludenev KIA this date (was this him?)
No.4, Boston on 10.2.43/0615 over Slawjanskaja (PQ 86671) @ 3200m: Was this from 45 BAP? They suffered some losses this date
No. 7, P-39 on 15.4.43/1533 over Taman: 45 IAP, either 41-38451 of Starishiy Leytenant M Petrov or 42-4606 of Serzhant Bezbabnov (but see Waldemar Eyrich's claim). Both KIA
No.16, U-2 on 15.5.43/1210 over Titarovskaya station (Taman) (PQ 86544) @ low altitude: HQ 278 IAD. Leytenant Vladimir Ivanovich Ershov (senior pilot)[KIA] 274 IAP (3 IAK) and passenger Ml.Lt. Evgeniy Ivanovich Kryukov [MIA] 43 IAP (3 IAK)
No. 22, IL-2 on 7.7.43/0350: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement)
No. 23, IL-2 on 7.7.43/0352: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement)
No. 29, LaGG on 8.7.43/0905 over Ugrim (PQ 61223) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA
No. 30: LaGG on 8.7.43/0910 over Ugrim (PQ 61221) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA
No. 31, Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1805 over Ugrim (PQ 62872) @ 2500m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore)
No. 32, Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1825 over Ugrim (PQ 61134) @ 1000m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore)
No. 39, "LaGG" on 16.7.43/1415 over PQ 54661 @ 1500m: 18 GIAP and Normandie Niemen Eskadrilya. 18 GIAP lost Serzhant Ivan Stolyarov while Normandie Niemen lost Kpt. Albert Littolff (possibly by Hartmann), Lt. Noel Castelain and M.Lt. Adrien Bernavon. All KIA
No. 52, Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1019 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61391) @ 3500m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA
No. 53, Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1030 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61331) @ 2000m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA
No. 89: IL-2 on 20.8.43/0607 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged
No. 90: IL-2 on 20.8.43/0608 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged
No. 94, "LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 5000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return
No. 95, "LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 4000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return
No. 96, "LaGG" on 19.9.43/1440 over PQ 58614 @ 1200m: Likely a Yak of 812 IAP. Lt Georgiy Pavlovich Churakov KIA (came down Andreyevka, landed safely but found dead in his aircraft by Soviet troops the following day. Best match by location, timing a little out)
Nos. 98-100, 2 LaGGs and a P-39 on 20.9.43: 288 IAD, 17 VA lost at least one Yak-7 this date
Nos. 106 & 107, P-39s on 26.9.43: 9 GIAD (16, 100 and 104 GIAPs), 8 VA. Misidentification or overclaiming, no losses this day
No. 112, P-39 on 29.9.43/0855 over Zaporozhe (PQ 58682) @ 4000m: Probably Maj. Vladimir Grigorievich Semenishin HSU, 2 x OL, ORB and OPW 1st Class of 104 GIAP KIA
No. 120, P-39 on 2.10.43/1140 over Novo Zaporozhe (PQ 58 581) @ 5000m: possibly Podpolkovnik (?) Arkadiy F Kovachevich of 9 GIAP. Baled out near Melitopol and survived
Nos. 163-165, P-39s on 8.1.44: 5 VA, including 7 IAK (205 and 304 IAD). These claims are believed to be against 69 GIAP, 304 IAD. Starshiy Leytenant Belyaev damaged and returned safely (three bullet holes) and one other damaged and bellylanded
No. 192, P-39 on 4.2.44/1140: 129 GIAP. St.Lt. Bekashonk and his wingman (Ml.Lt. Koshel'kov). Overclaiming, no actual loss
No. 193, P-39 on 26.2.44/0908: 129 GIAP. Ml.Lt. Leontiya Zadiraki baled out and returned safely
No. 194, P-39 on 26.2.44/0916: 205 IAD or 304 IAD. Overclaiming, no other losses at this time
No. 195-199, P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. Three P-39s lost from a formation of four: Starshiy Leytenant Rybakov baled out safely, Starshiy Leytenant Nikolay Arsenovich Zinchenko (HSU) KIA and Leytenant Mamin also baled out. Ml.Lt. Demchenko's P-39 was slightly damaged and Ml.Lt. Motuzko's was sent to PARM for major repairs after bellylanding 12km S of Kirovograd)
Nos. 200 & 201, P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. These were likely the P-39 of Leytenant Lusto, only damaged or another claim for Vodolazhskiy (also claimed by Rall and Bachnick)
No. 202: 438 IAP P-39 on 26.2.44/1440. This was likely Leytenant Oleynikov, known to have baled out safely 10 minutes after Vodolazhskiy did
No. 212-217, LaGGs on 5.5.44: One of these may have been Leytenant Ivanov of 402 IAP, 265 IAD. KIA this date, attributed to Lipfert or Hartmann
Nos 249 & 250, P-39s on 4.6.44: During 4th sortie, Hartmann and Birkner were jumped by 2 Aircobras, Hartmann claimed both. They were flown by Mayor B. B. Gakhaet and Leytenant Nikolay L. Trofimov of the famous 16 GIAP. Both returned home unscathed
No. 264, P-51C-5-NT Mustang on 24.6.44/0950: 42-103599/42 of 318th FS, 325th FG. Joseph W Harper MIA (Diekmann and Birkner claimed as well)
Nos. 296, 299 & 300, P-39s on 24.8.44: 9 GIAD. Very likely overclaiming, only one loss this date: an aircraft that was separated from its parent formation, pilot MIA
No. 304, Yak-9 on 27.10.44/1016 over Nyregynaza (PQ 18265) @ 2500m: 2912 ("29-292-12")/"29" of 2 AE, 150 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Lt. Nikolai Matveevich Knut
No. 309, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1410: Possibly 0215354 of 179 IAP, 331 IAD, 5 VA. Ml.Lt Evgenii Ivanovich Teplishev
No. 311, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1425: Possibly 11186 of 149 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Ml.Lt Aleksandr Titovich Kotlyar
No. 317, Boston on 17.11.44/1425 over PQ 98584 @ 2000m: A definite Soviet Boston loss to fighters this date came from 453 BAP, 218 BAD, 5 VA
No. 319, La-5 on 22.11.44/1145 over PQ 98452 @ 4500m: Possibly 177 GIAP, 14 GIAD, 5 VA. Pilot Kovrigin shot down in dogfight in Hatvan area
Nos. 320 & 321, IL-2s on 22.11.45: Possibly 809 ShAP, 264 ShAD, 5 VA. Overclaiming, only one loss: crew of Polunin-Kuptsov, crashlanded 7km NW of Csany. Repaired and returned to service (attributed by Soviet sources to AAA).
No. 352, Yak on 8.5.45: 2 VA, 5 VA or 17 VA, pilot said to be KIA