German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

Gabor, great thanks !

Best Regards,
Alfred

[GMichalski]

hi,
Incredible info Gabor..


maybe if we can share more it would be in the right way

many times i hit a wall with russian info hehe

You have some little more of these pilots:

Wilhelm Batz
Peter Duttmann
Heinrich Sturm
.......


Aladar Heppes
László Pottyondy
Laszlo Molnar
György Debrődy (very interesting for me)
Istvan Fabian
......

many thanks,
regards

[Nick Hector]

For Juha et al:

The 25.2.45 victory was claimed as a Yak-9. Historians like us who were trying to match the victory to the loss have surmised that it was a misidentification of Darjan's Bf109. Hence, a Bf109 does not show up in Lipfert's victory list and indeed his memoirs state his desire to have encountered a Romanian-flown Bf109 as he thought it would be interesting to dogfight with one. This is because he had trained Romanian pilots and wanted to "see what they had learned."

Or in other words: if he did ever actually tangle with a Bf109 in reality, certainly at the time of writing his memoirs he was unknowing of the fact.

[HGabor]

Hah, I am glad you like it. Again: credit to my friend(s) in Moscow I work with on the soviet plane losses in Hungary.

But if you do not mind, please be a little bit more specific about the pilots and their claims, as in details all these questions would require a series of books to be written... Which might come in the future, but now it would be too early.

You specifically mentioned Debrődy György (George), one of Hungary's most successful fighter pilots.

Probably you know that he was shot down on November 16, 1944 in a very heavy dogfight with soviet fighters, which basically terminated his fighting career. He, as well as his soviet opponent was a very dedicated and experienced soldier, who chose the most dangerous form of the aerial combat: a head-on, frontal attack. The Yak-9 and the Bf 109G were getting closer and closer to each other with an incredible speed and none of them wanted to turn out... They both knew: whoever turns out first will loose the battle. So they opened fire at the same time and mutually hit each other. The Yak exploded with a large fireball, while Debrődy was shot in the stomach and the bullet(s) passed through his body. He crash-landed near Hatvan and only the fast medical intervention saved his life. Years later, after the war he started to feel a big back pain. They made an X-ray and ... a soviet 12.7 mm bullet was clearly visible beside his backbone!!! A long surgery removed it and it was hanging above his bed for the rest of his life as a literally painful memory from his last battle in WWII. His opponent was most likely gv.ml.l-t Ismail Semenovich Rulev (KIA). His Novosibirsk, factory No.153-built plane: Yak-9D, S/N: 2015329, engine: 415-992 belonged to 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 85 GvIAP.

Otherwise we just finished a very successful project with our Russian colleauges: identified and recovered an IL-2 near Seregélyes, Hu. Briefly: the plane was downed by flak on March 14, 1945 from 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP. S/N: 18842110, engine: 2510758. The only clue we had to successfully identify the crew was a broken piece of the engine block with the last 2 digits of the engine serial number: .......58. So I started to check the lost IL-2 engine serials of the 17 VA and found only two such cases! One crashed far away, but the other one right here at Seregélyes. This was IL-2 No.18842110, with the Vorobiev-Subbotin crew. Subbotin bailed out and was taken POW, but Vorobiev got stuck in his cockpit and was not able to leave his burning plane... Some time later our Russian friends were able to contact the Vorobiev family in Russia and one of his relative came to Hungary to visit the crash site and to do the necessary DNA testing, since the remains of the killed pilot were also found in the corn-field. His broken comb was handed over to his family...
Finally the whole story was broadcasted in the Russian State Television. Enjoy:

http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/761438/

Also, see the engine-piece, which was our 'key' to solve this mystery: ......58 and a note in the soviet 136 ShAD mechanical papers with the plane and engine serial entry - regarding the repair of this aircraft on November 19, 1944.
Another pilot's late return to his family and homeland...

Gabor

[Juha]

Originally Posted by Nick Hector

For Juha et al:

The 25.2.45 victory was claimed as a Yak-9. Historians like us who were trying to match the victory to the loss have surmised that it was a misidentification of Darjan's Bf109. Hence, a Bf109 does not show up in Lipfert's victory list and indeed his memoirs state his desire to have encountered a Romanian-flown Bf109 as he thought it would be interesting to dogfight with one. This is because he had trained Romanian pilots and wanted to "see what they had learned."

Or in other words: if he did ever actually tangle with a Bf109 in reality, certainly at the time of writing his memoirs he was unknowing of the fact.

In his memoirs he definitely says that he identified his opponents as Rumanian 109s at the beginning of the combat. Now more important is to known what he thought in Feb. 45.

Juha

[HGabor]

Sorry, no info. His 182. official victory on February 25, 1945 at 10:53 is a Yak-9.

Gabor

[GMichalski]

Hi,
many thanks for the info Gabor,

i begin to take interest for this pilot after read carefully this web:

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/debrody/debrody.htm

seems a reliable pilot but i only have this usaaf losses....none in russian side

you can read in the last lines:

"After the war he emigrated to Spain with his friend, Miklós Kenyeres, and later to Canada, and to the USA. In 1967 the doctors operated him again and eliminated from his body, near his spine a Soviet 12,7 mm bullet – it was a “souvenir” from his last combat."

he had the russian bullet in his body for 23 years...

regards

[HGabor]

Yep... "Who does not believe in miracles is not realistic."

I keep checking some claims and for Gerhard Barkhorn I found these:

Claim No.277-278-279: three IL-2s on November 16, 1944 - Probably real victori(es), but I cannot match them to planes. The 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 92 GvShAP lost 5 (!) IL-2s in dogfight:

5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 92 GvShAP IL-2, S/N: 10294, tactical white '71' at Kunt........airfield, - gv.s-a (!) Kovalev
5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 92 GvShAP IL-2, S/N: 10618, engine: 257326, tactical white '83' at Kóka, - st.s-t (!) Kon'uhov
5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 92 GvShAP IL-2, S/N: 11360, engine: 4590375, tactical white '99' at Tóalmás-E, 4 km, - gv.st.l-t Bocharov
5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 92 GvShAP IL-2, S/N: 303925, tactical white '75' at Kuns..........airfield - gv.ml.l-t Sadohin
5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 92 GvShAP IL-2, S/N: 303933, tactical white '74' at Farmos, 3 km, - gv.l-t Bizhko

Three, or at least one of these was probably Barkhorn's.

Claim No.280 Yak-3 on November 16, 1944 - Real victory: 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP Yak-3, S/N: 3414 (3429214), engine: 412-219, tactical '34', piloted by gv.l-t Agdantsev (OK)

Claim No.281 La-5 on November 16, 1944 - Real victory: 5 VA, 279 IAD, 192 IAP, La-5F, S/N: 39214932, engine: 65031326, tactical '32', piloted by ml.l-t Ol'nev (WIA) near Jászberény-Hatvan.

Claim No.282 La-5 on November 17, 1944 - No such permanent La-5 loss, probably just damaged

Claim No.283 Yak-3 on November 17, 1944 - Real victory: 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 149 GvIAP Yak-1B, S/N: 37191, engine: 516-41 at 15:00 PM at 3000 m in the Kóka-Szentmártonkáta area. Pilot: ml.l-t Vladimir Petrovich Isupov bailed out and returned on November 19, 1944. Battle: 8 Yaks (comm: Gorelov) + 4 Yaks (comm: Gilda) against 4 Fw 190s and 2 Bf 109s. This one was Isupov's 3rd mission this day. Stepanov downed a Bf 109.

Claim No.284 IL-2 on November 23, 1944 - Not sure about location, but 17 VA, 306 ShAD, 995 ShAP lost four IL-2s (S/N: 9493, 10146, 1875972, 1879583) in the Majs area in Southern-Hungary. If Barkhorn flew his mission to the South, then one IL-2 was probably his victory, - but I cannot verify it.

Claim No.285 Pe-2 on November 24, 1944 - Interesting case. Looks like the soviet units, flying Pe-2s in the area did NOT loose any planes this day! At least no losses in 5 VA, 511 ORAP and no losses in 48 GvORAP. (No info about 17 VA, 39 ORAP, but I think it was still not in Barkhorn's op. area, so this claim was probably max. damaged, but not destroyed.)

Claim No.286 Yak-9 on December 25, 1944 - Probably a real victory as several Yak losses in 17 VA, 288 IAD, 611 IAP. Also few other losses in 659 IAP, etc. But because there is no location in his claim, at this moment it is impossible to match to certain planes.

Gabor

[Rob Romero]

Gabor,

Let me also extend my thanks to you for your tremendous contributions to this field of inquiry and wholeheartedly encourage you to continue in this worthy endeavor. I hope not to be overbearing in asking clarification on the following Lipfert claims:

- Where indicated Pilot OK or WIA (Claims 147, 156, 167, 171, 175, 180, 186, 189) –does this mean aircraft was a total loss, crash landed or just damaged?

- Where “real . . . victory, but unsure which one,- too many options” (165-66, 169-70, 178); is it possible other German/Hungarian claimants or even AA (flack) were the actual victors?

Regarding Barkhorn’s claims “No.277-278-279: three IL-2s on November 16, 1944”, you enigmatically state, “Three, or at least one of these was probably Barkhorn's.” Could you clarify this?

Thanks again,

Rob Romero

[GMichalski]

Hi,
thanks Gabor,



your info is limited to late 1944 in Hungary?

i found one pilot loss in 659IAP:
http://www.obd-memorial.ru/

29 Донесение о потерях Горлач Павел Алексеевич __.__.1923 25.12.1944 Краснодарский край, Титаровский р-н, ст. Старошостовская

in 611IAP another one:
59 Донесение о потерях Кириченко Дмитрий Гаврилович __.__.1918 25.12.1944 Украинская ССР, Полтавская обл., Кишинкивский р-н, с. Кошинки

sorry but my information is more limited and can not add anything more,

regards