German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

[HGabor]

Thank you. Where I said OK or WIA, the pilots survived the battle and in most cases they returned to their unit (or were sent to hospital) the very same day, or in the next few days. Fate of their aircraft could be different: complete crash or just belly landing, but either way: it was erased from soviet AC inventory as a combat loss. (Write-off, so the victory credit is correct.)

For “real victory, but unsure which one,- too many options” I mean the claim is correct for 99%, as soviet planes were lost in the given time and area according to the claim. But if 3 planes crashed in the same battle in a small area, I cannot select the one mentioned in somebody's claim. Same, if the planes were shot out in the reported time and area, but they actually crashed somewhere else at a remote location... I cannot tell which victim received the bullets from this specific pilot.

Let's pick an example. What September 27, 1944 (the 'Kassel-mission') was for the Liberators of the 8. USAAF, 445 BG, - January 4, 1945 was the same for the IL-2s of the 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP. This day in the battles around Bajna, Hungary - they lost 7 IL-2s in dogfights and one additional to AAA. These 8 lost planes (S/N: 10967, 10987, 11425, 12052, 12054, 304836, 1888603, 18704106 and 18853106) were about one third of the regiment at that time! (The 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 989 ShAP lost another two IL-2s in dogfight in the same area: S/N: 10430 and 11413, while the 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 715 ShAP lost one (S/N: 11511) to AAA and S/N: 11536 probably to fighters. 17 VA, 189 and 306 divisions also lost IL-2s, mainly to AAA, few to fighters.) The battle area exactly matches Lipfert's 169th and 170th claim. Since I am not aware of more than 9-10 IL-2 claims for the day in the area, I would say that Lipfert's claims are honest and true. But because of the too many options, I cannot tell which planes and crews. Some actually crashed en route to their home base, so it would be even more difficult to match the actual opponent(s).

Barkhorn’s claims “No.277-278-279: three IL-2s on November 16, 1944” - Some lists say he claimed 3 IL-2s this day. Some say only fighters. Fighters match clearly, but the 92nd GvShAP lost 5 IL-2s in dogfight. Again, Tony Wood's list mentions only 4 German IL-2 claims this day over Hungary, but there was a 5th IL-2 loss in dogfight as well! If Barkhorn claimed IL-2 this day, I would say there is a good chance that at least one was his. (No proof, though.)

So far I found Lipfert's claims the most precise. Barkhorn's list was also good and fair. But Hartmann's list was less than poor. I am not convinced that Hartmann (IN REAL) was even among the 10 best German fighter pilots in WWII!!! I have absolutely no explanation why he was chosen to be the Star of the Luftwaffe. I know these are strong words, but based on his average in Hungary in 1944, compared to soviet records, only 1/3 of his claims looks real victory (destroyed, or written-off) and 2/3 just fantasy... (Sorry, to be correct: max. damaged, but not destroyed)

Certainly I am not a judge here and everybody is most welcome to prove the opposite. But I think in the future more legends will be changed/adjusted/-you name it-, and more publications will reveal the truth. Basically: this is the main purpose of this forum too.

Gabor

[GMichalski]

Hi,
i would add that some Hungarian pilots also claimed fighters:

Dezso Szentgyorgyi:
04.01.45 La-5 Me 109G 101/2 FS Sud Est de Bicske 18

Lajos Toth:
04.01.45 Slt La-5 . Me 109G 101 / 2 FS Sudeste Bicske 19

Later that day, Lt Jozsef Szabo claimed:
04.01.45 La-5 Me109G 101/4 FS near Bicske? ¿?


my first little info from this day, seems total losses:

17 VA Losses were: 17 IL-2 1 Boston, 1 La-5F, 3 La-5FN, 1 Yak-1b, 1 Pe-2, 2 Yak-9D, 1 Yak-9T.

regards

[GMichalski]

I see in german claims:

4.1.45/1112 II/JG 52 Hptm. Helmut Lipfert La-5FN Russian 172nd/203 Tardos
4.1.45 6/JG 52 Lt. Heinz Ewald La-5FN Russian /85
4.1.45 1/JG 53 Maj. Juergen Harder La-5FN Russian 65th/(?) Budapest
4,1.45 St./JG 52 Maj Gerhard Barkhorn La-5 _____ _____ E N 297
4,1.45 St./JG 52 Maj Gerhard Barkhorn La-5 _____ _____ E N 298
4,1.45 St./JG 52 Maj Gerhard Barkhorn La-5 _____ _____ E N 299

seems Overclaim, many claims for 4 losses?

About yaks:
II/JG 52 Maj. Gerhard Barkhorn Yak-9
II/JG 52 Hptm. Helmut Lipfert Yak-9 Bieske

3 yak9 losses in total, for 2 claims?

you can link some of these or Hungarian claims,
were german and Hungarian claims all in the same region and hour?

regards

[HGabor]

So far it looks that on January 4, 1945 the 17 VA lost:

20 IL-2m3
1 A-20G-25-DO Boston
1 La-5F
4 La-5FN
1 Yak-1B
2 Yak-9D
1 Yak-9T
1 Pe-2

(Some small, secondary 'satellite' units might be overlooked.) Looks like Szentgyörgyi-Tóth-Szabó claimed 3 'real' La-5 victories as three La-5s of 17 VA, 194 IAD, 530 IAP were lost in their reported area. In fact all 5 lost La-5s belonged to the 530 IAP. Note Lipfert's La-5 victory in prev. comments too. That plane was the 4th (pilot: KIA). All details are known for the losses, except not sure who claimed which particular plane in the battle.

Gabor

[HGabor]

Oh, I did not know about so many La-5 claims! There were only 5 losses in 17 VA on January 4, 1945.

Could you please provide TIME info to compare them to the reported (Moscow local) times in soviet reports? I think this is the only way to catch the German and Hungarian overclaims! As of the Yaks, I think it is almost irrelevant what is written in the German-Hungarian claims. In the air ALL Yaks looked the same. It is enough to say: Yak or La. The 17 VA lost 4 Yaks in total on January 4, 1945.

Gabor

[HGabor]

OK. On January 4, 1945 the 17 VA, 194 IAD, 530. IAP lost 5 La-5s at local times as follows:

09:15 - 1 La-5FN loss. Bicske area at 3500 m. (4 La-5 against 8 Bf 109.)
09:30 - 1 La-5FN loss. Bicske area at 3000 m. (4 La-5 against 8 Bf 109.)
(These two were probably in the same battle with the same planes)

10:30 - 1 La-5FN loss. Martonvásár area. (4 La-5 against 8 Bf 109.)

11:20 - 1 La-5FN loss. Tarján area. 6 530. IAP La-5 covering 14 639. ShAP IL-2.

14:55 - 1 La-5F loss. 6 La-5 covering 12 IL-2 near Bicske at 800 m.

Maybe this helps. Any claims in other times, or more claims at a single time, listed above, can be considered an overclaim. (ie: only damaged, but not destroyed.)

Gábor

[Rob Romero]

Gabor, you state:

“But if 3 planes crashed in the same battle in a small area, I cannot select the one mentioned in somebody's claim. Same, if the planes were shot out in the reported time and area, but they actually crashed somewhere else at a remote location... I cannot tell which victim received the bullets from this specific pilot.
Let's pick an example. What September 27, 1944 (the 'Kassel-mission') was for the Liberators of the 8. USAAF, 445 BG, - January 4, 1945 was the same for the IL-2s of the 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP. This day in the battles around Bajna, Hungary - they lost 7 IL-2s in dogfights and one additional to AAA. These 8 lost planes (S/N: 10967, 10987, 11425, 12052, 12054, 304836, 1888603, 18704106 and 18853106) were about one third of the regiment at that time! (The 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 989 ShAP lost another two IL-2s in dogfight in the same area: S/N: 10430 and 11413, while the 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 715 ShAP lost one (S/N: 11511) to AAA and S/N: 11536 probably to fighters. 17 VA, 189 and 306 divisions also lost IL-2s, mainly to AAA, few to fighters.) The battle area exactly matches Lipfert's 169th and 170th claim. Since I am not aware of more than 9-10 IL-2 claims for the day in the area, I would say that Lipfert's claims are honest and true. But because of the too many options, I cannot tell which planes and crews. Some actually crashed en route to their home base, so it would be even more difficult to match the actual opponent(s).”

If it’s not too much trouble, may I make the following suggested summary of LOSSES vs. CLAIMS to help historians asses the probability of a claim being valid (i.e., 75% or 56%).

Re 27 Sep 44 Mission Il-2 Losses/Claims:
Losses: 9 Plus to fighters + 2 Plus to AAA Vs. 9-10 German Claims = Almost certain victory –unable to match claims to exact victim”

Here are several hypothetical postings (This is not for 27 Sep 44 Mission!):
7 Plus to fighters + 3 Plus to AAA = 6 German Claims + 2 Hungarian Claims + 2 AAA Claims
7 Plus to fighters + 3 to AAA = 6 German Claims + 0 Hungarian Claims + 2 AAA Claims
7 to fighters + 3 Plus to AAA = 6 German Claims + No known Hungarian Claims + 2 AAA Claims

Once again Gabor, many thanks.

[GMichalski]

Hi,

4,1.45 6./JG 52 Hptm. Lipfert La-5FN 1km südöstlich Tardos 1km SE Tardos 11:12 _____ E N 169
4,1.45 6./JG 52 Lt. Ewald La-5 S. Gran _____ _____ E N 56
4,1.45 I./JG 53 Maj. Harder La-5 ¿? ____ _____ E N
4,1.45 St./JG 52 Maj. Barkhorn La-5 ¿? _____ _____ E N 297
4,1.45 St./JG 52 Maj. Barkhorn La-5 ¿? _____ _____ E N 298
4,1.45 St./JG 52 Maj. Barkhorn La-5 ¿? _____ _____ E N 299



about the time of many claims, is not known to me... sorry,

regards

[HGabor]

Lipfert's La-5FN claim is firm for January 4, 1945. Tardos and Tarján are basically neighbour villages. 11:12 and 11:20 in the records of two enemy countries(!) is the same. It was La-5FN, S/N: 39211399, ml.l-t Suhorukhov KIA. 17 VA, 194 IAD, 53o IAP.

Gabor

[Johannes]

Hi

Regarding Tony Woods not listing Barkhorn's 3 X Il-2 for 16th November 1944, he did make five claims that day, one of his biggest ever, but as mentioned before the micro films are only partial at this point, and only the fighters were listed for Barkhorn this day.

Regards

Johannes