German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

[HGabor]

Szentgyörgyi Dezső (in Bf 109G, code: W-1+77) and Tóth Lajos (both from 101/2. squadron) claimed 1-1 La-5 at Bicske in the morning. Szabó József (101/4. squadron) claimed a La-5 separately on another mission during the day. So the 3 Hungarian claims were NOT scored together on the same mission, but on two.

Szentgyörgyi Dezső and Tóth Lajos (the two leading Hungarian aces) probably downed the first two 530 IAP La-5s of the day at 9:15 and 9:30 at Bicske-SE. (La-5FN, S/N: 39211920 and 39211023.) Soviet flight had 4 La-5s, their leader was Ivan Petrovich Vashenko of the 3rd squadron. 2 La-5s were lost, the other 2 La-5s, including Vashenko returned. Vashenko was shot down on the very next mission after refuelling at 10:30 near Martonvásár!!!!

Szabó's reported La-5 victim is unknown. As no details on the German times and locations, only Lipfert's claim can be identified. But it looks 100%.


The five 17 VA, 194 IAD, 530 IAP La-5 losses on January 4, 1945:

09:15 - La-5FN, S/N: 39211920, tactical ‘20’, piloted by ml.l-t Fedor Fedorovich Orlovsky (OK). - Bicske area at 3500 m. (4 La-5 against 8 Bf 109.) crashlanded after the battle far away in the South, near Cece. Plane broken, pilot OK. Probably Tóth's or Szentgyörgyi's victim.
09:30 - La-5FN, S/N: 39211023, engine: 8212014, tactical ‘23’, piloted by ml.l-t Aleksandr Petrovich Dyakov (KIA). - Bicske area at 3000 m. (4 La-5 against 8 Bf 109.) Probably Tóth's or Szentgyörgyi's victim.
(These two were probably in the same battle with the same planes)

10:30 - La-5FN, S/N: 39211488, engine: 82111529, tactical ‘88’, piloted by Ivan Petrovich Vashenko (OK). - Martonvásár area. (4 La-5 against 8 Bf 109.)

11:20 - La-5FN, S/N: 39211399, engine: 82111418, tactical ‘99’, piloted by ml.l-t Aleksei Stepanovich Suhorukhov (KIA). - Tarján area. 6 530. IAP La-5 covering 14 639. ShAP IL-2. (Downed by Lipfert for sure at Tardos-Tarján)

14:55 - La-5F, S/N: 39215048, engine: 65033077, tactical ‘48’, piloted by ml.l-t Maxim Yakovlevich Efimov (KIA). - 6 La-5 covering 12 IL-2 near Bicske at 800 m. Shot down at Bicske-NW, 12 km in dogfight.

.................................................. ...........................

When calculating claims, let's not forget that 5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP also lost a La-5FN, S/N: 39213325, engine: 82131274, tactical '25' at Budapest, Ferihegy airport when crash-landed with battle damages after a mission at 15:20. Pilot, ml.l-t Vasilii Fedorovich Panov was OK, plane was later repaired.

Gabor

[HGabor]

GMichalski,

Sorry I missed your question on the Yaks. December 25, 1944 is a very messy day, several Yak losses and confusing papers. 17 VA, 288 IAD, 659 IAP pilot, ml.l-t Pavel Alekseevich Gorlach was downed near Vértesszőlős while protecting IL-2s in the Pátka area in his Yak-9D, S/N: 16166065, engine: 3-2707(?) and was MIA.

December 25, 1944 hit the 17 VA, 288 IAD, 611 IAP the hardest. Their Yaks had very serious battles with II/JG 52 fighters in the Székesfehérvár-N - Pátka - Zámoly area. Several crashes, but papers are not clear, chances are some planes are mixed with other days' losses, but written off by the 25th.

611 IAP Capt. Konstantin Leontievich Chernogor was KIA in Yak-1B, S/N: 26170 near Zámoly. l-t Nikolai Nikolaevich Kutsenko bailed out from his burning Yak-1B, S/N: 41184 also in the Zámoly area. ml.l-ts Dmitrii Gavrilovich Kirichenko, Ivan Ivanovich Aleshkin, Aleksei Timofeevich Fadeev, Boris Aleksandrovich Yablyukhin were also downed. (ml.l-t Kirichenko was famous ace, Maj. Aleksei Pavlovich Churilin's wingman.)

ml.l-t Georgii Artemovich Alevardov belly-landed near his base after dogfight in his Yak-9M, S/N: 2715376. Planes were permanently or temporarily lost: Yak-1Bs: 14177, 15150, 26170, 41184, 44172, 05193. (44172 was the regiment commander's, Nikolai Fedorovich Isaenko's officially assigned plane for a long time. He had flown it on 41 missions in 1944. (Not sure about the pilot on December 25, 1944.) According to his personal records, Isaenko later flew the following Yak-3s of the 611 IAP in 1945: (Tbilisi-built) S/N: 310123 on 28 missions and (Saratov-built) S/N: 2235 on another 11 missions.) Other downed Yak-9Ms on December 25, 1944: 2715372 and 2715374.

This day still requires lots of research and data reconciliation.

As of the 611 IAP, see attached pic of downed 611 IAP Yak-1B near Börgönd airfield after belly landing on January 1, 1945. S/N: 39167, tactical yellow '20'. Since 611 IAP was transferred from 236 IAD to 288 IAD in 1944 and their tail markings were identical with 267 IAP, there is an ongoing public confusion about 267-611 IAP planes, markings and photos. This plane, yellow '20' in Hungary belonged to 611 IAP, NOT the 267 IAP - in Yugoslavia!!!!

Gabor

[Nick Hector]

Well, I am going to go out on a limb and ask:

Can any of our Russian friends and experts help to complete the picture by providing info to the forum on the earlier victims of Helmut Lipfert?

It would be fascinating to have all of his victims mapped out as best as possible...

Nick

[GMichalski]

hi,
thanks anyway, your help is much appreciated
for me and i suppose to others of this forum....

regards

[GMichalski]

hi,

i review the info and exist the little chance that some german pilots misidentified the la-5 with Yak9 or Yak1 ¿?

even passed me this situation in simulators...no real, it´s a game, but...

maybe in the future with more info....

regards

[HGabor]

Could be... Misidentification was very common issue in the winter months of 1944-1945 due to poor visibility and distance. Soviet pilots regularly misidentified Bf 109s and Fw 190s... In many battles with Bf 109s they reported "Fokkers". This problem definitely makes research very challenging....

Gabor

[HGabor]

Folks,

Answer to the question on Capt. Pottyondy László, Hungarian 13 victory Bf 109G-ace's claims. He scored his victories between 1941-1945. (All over VVS planes.) He often flew in pair with Hptm. Eric Hartmann in the late fall of 1944. Sometimes he was the leader and Hartmann was his wingman, sometimes in reverse. Here is what I found in soviet losses over Hungary for him where: reported date, location and AC type matched:

Claim No., Date .....Reported AC ...Real victim

04 ….. 30.10.44. Boston III ……….A-20G-10-DO, S/N: 42-53856 (or perhaps 42-54197, an A-20G-15-DO), 5 VA, 218 BAD, 48 BAP at Nagykőrös
05 ….. 30.10.44. Yak-9 ………......Yak-1B, S/N: 21151, 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP, gv.,l.l-t Evgenii Vasilevich Erofitskii
06 ….. 01.11.44. La-5 ………........La-5F, S/N: 39215336, 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP at Szolnok, pilot WIA.
07 ….. 17.11.44. Boston III ……….A-20G-10-DO, S/N: 42-53956, 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP at Ócsa (2 killed airmen buried nearby) - No Boston loss for Hartmann at Erzsébetfalva!
08 ….. 22.12.44. IL-2m3 ……….....Found no permanent loss in the area, probably overclaim (only damaged but not destroyed)
09 ….. 03.01.45. Yak-9 ………......Yak-9D, a 17 VA, 288 IAD, 659 IAP plane - not sure which one, 3-4 options in reported area!
10 ….. 14.01.45. Boston III ……….A-20G-15-DO, S/N: 42-54166, 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP battle at Pilisvörösvár, but crashed at Rákospalota.
11 ….. 22.01.45. La-5 ………........La-5FN, a 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP plane. Not sure which one, - 3 options in reported area.
12 ….. 20.02.45. Yak-9 ………......Yak-3, S/N: 2119 (2129219), 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, pilot killed, left wing blown-off still in the air...
13 ….. 08.03.45. IL-2m3 ………....IL-2m3, S/N: 11560, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 989 ShAP, battle at Soponya, but crashed at Rácalmás-NW. Later repaired and returned into service!!!

Cheers,

Gabor

[GMichalski]

Hi,
great info!!

you know little more about russian claims of Debrődy György?

i see his american claims match well....

regards

[HGabor]

GMichalski,

Here is Capt. Debrődy György (George), Hungarian Bf 109G fighter ace. (1921-1984) He had 26 victories from which he claimed the first 18 over the Eastern Front. Since I have soviet AC loss data only for Hungary, therefore I cannot verify these 18 claims. When he returned to Hungary, in the summer of 1944 (as part of the Hungarian home defence fighter forces) he claimed 6 American planes. (2 P-38J, 1 P-51B, 1 B-17G, 2 B-24 Liberators) These claims all look good, but in this topic we primarily focus on claims against the soviet VVS. Having said that he had only 2 (the last 2) victories I could check as these were his only soviet claims over Hungary. Both claims are correct and can be verified from soviet sources. One of them was even a very famous soviet pilot: gv.st.l-t Boris Vasilevich Zhigulenkov (HSU)!

Claim No., Date .....Reported AC ...Real victim

25 ….. 16.11.44. .....La-5FN….......La-5FN, S/N: 39212952, engine: 8213749, tactical white " <*52 ", 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 178 GvIAP, gv.st.l-t Boris Vasilevich Zhigulenkov (KIA, ace, HSU!)
26 ….. 16.11.44. .....Yak-9 ………...Yak-9D, S/N: 2015329, engine: 415-992, 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 85 GvIAP, gv.ml.l-t Ismail Semenovich Rulev (KIA)

This was his last battle and victory during WWII, since during this last victory he was shot down too (mutually with the Yak-9) and seriously injured. He survived the war, but this battle ended his fighting career.

Gabor

[GMichalski]

wow,
many thanks Gabor
about these two you know some....

Istvan Fabian
Lajos Toth

apart from these reliable Hungarian pilots, with your info,
you know the other side of the coin or any pilots who was exagerated in claims Hungarian or German or others....apart from Hartmann of course

regards