Tactical codes of Stab., I and II/SG4 (Ghostbombers.com -inspirated) question

[Kari Lumppio]

Salut!

First of all I would like to say to Nick Beale thank you very much for the Ghostbombers -site and especially the SG 4 section. At last I found time to read the last updates and it is of really great value for me!

Once again one of my house-of-cards was demolished. In the Osprey/Weal Schlachtgruppen –book there is that very interesting photo of a Fw 190 "7" (with exclamation marks!) on page 106. I took that to be "red 7" and as such 2./SG 4. BUT as Nick has provided the info 2nd Staffel used black numerals!

So what colour is that number “7”? The grey value is so light black doesn’t feel right. Could it be green as Stab/SG4 did have 7 Fw 190s in strength July 1944? (ref: http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/schlacht/bstsg4.html ) The photo in question was probably taken then as it is published in “2. augustheft 1944” of Luftflotte Nordost.

There is slight possibility that the "7" was from III/SG3 which seems to have used for a while a really hodge-podge coding. Likely the planes received were sent to battle as they were without bothering any markings.

There was also that very interesting photo album sold at E-Bay awhile ago having photos of a JaBo Fw 190 unit which transferred from Italy to Latvia in 1944. In other words Stab. I or II/SG 4. The album had one photo in the “Kurland” part showing a bomb-laden Fw 190 “1” where the numeral tonal value is similar to the “7” and the fuselage cross is also of the earlier black-white-black type. Could that one be the “green 1” mentioned in Nick’s text?

One intriguing part more in Nick’s text (“June 1944”) is: “At 18.30 hours on the 12th, Fw 190s “black 4” and “D” landed at Airasca from “an airfield in the Ancona-Piacenza area” (almost certainly Piacenza).” Could this “black D” be the same as found pictured in the Aders&Held “Stuka” –book (ISBN 0-88740-216-X) page 191 (middle), at least I think it is D on the cowling)?

Do I understand correctly that II/SG4 tactical codes were not recorded during the transfer to Eastern Front?

Cheers,
Kari

[Nick Beale]

First, thank you Kari. It's been fun putting this small piece of the story together.

I don't have either of the books you mention, so I can't say anything useful about the photos you mention. Sorry!

sadly, the tactical codes during the transfer to Latvia are not given by the source I used (Ultra, Main Series of Reports to Allied Commands in file series DEFE3 at the PRO/NA).

[Jean-Yves Lorant]

Hi Kari ,

In the Hors Série issue number 28 of the french magazine Le Fana de l'Aviation (July 2005) I published a quite different - and better - complete photo of the same Fw 190 F-8 green "7" of Stab./SG 4 in Wesenberg or a sattellite field in Kurland in september 1944. If you cannot find this issue, send me a private e-mail with your postal adress so I can send you a good Xerox print. Obviously one of the most amazing Fw 190 F-8 I ever seen...

Hals und Beinbruch an alle !

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Jean-Yves Lorant

In the Hors Série issue number 28 of the french magazine Le Fana de l'Aviation (July 2005) I published a photo of the same Fw 190 F-8 green "7" of Stab./SG 4

Publication in July was too late, I took my holiday in Paris (and visited La Maison du Livre Aviation) in June!

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

I bring up another subject which fortunately falls under the title too. This occurred to my mind during this weekend when I at last had some time for my hobbies.

In some Czech publications I have seen photos of JaBo Fw 190 identified as II/SG4 planes and with "numeral + -" markings (second gruppe). I wonder if these identifications are 100% sure. In the Fw 190 loss list for SG 3 (provided by mr Matti Salonen, he is a TOCH member) it seems II/SG 3 also used numerals for tactical codes. But at least during the Italian period II/SG4 did use alphabets and probably also during the Bagration offensive (July-August 1944 - I think for example Fw 190 In Action -booklet has picture(s?) from this period).

When did II/SG4 change tactical codes from alphabets to numerals and did it indeed do that? A loss list analysis would be the answer, but perhaps someone does have the data already (also quicker and easier for me... am a bit lazy) (clarfication added later: I do not have any SG4 loss data at the moment). I hope there are others interested in the ground-attack units above me. A theme I would love to see more publications to be devoted to.


Regards,
Kari

[Jim P.]

This comment doesn't necessarily pertain to this thread, but it seemed like a reasonable place to add this. For some reason authors of numerous publications continue to maintain that most 2., 5. and 8. Staffel fighters from the mid-war years - late-1940 through 1943 - wore red Verbandkennzeichen - red code numbers. This is NOT indicated by loss reports. While there were some exceptions, the general rule is that the codes were black as reported in losses.

Notable exceptions were with the early JG 77/5 units in the north and with 2. and 5./JG 27 in North Africa. With the JG 27 machines one really needs to look at photos because, for instance, in 5./JG 27, many machines carried a black number and a red II./Gruppe bar, while others wore all red markings and some all black. It is definitely confusing as heck, but the study of photos cannot be understated versus taking 'published sources' as gospel.

[Andrew Arthy]

Originally Posted by Kari Lumppio

Hello!

I bring up another subject which fortunately falls under the title too. This occurred to my mind during this weekend when I at last had some time for my hobbies.

In some Czech publications I have seen photos of JaBo Fw 190 identified as II/SG4 planes and with "numeral + -" markings (second gruppe). I wonder if these identifications are 100% sure. In the Fw 190 loss list for SG 3 (provided by mr Matti Salonen, he is a TOCH member) it seems II/SG 3 also used numerals for tactical codes. But at least during the Italian period II/SG4 did use alphabets and probably also during the Bagration offensive (July-August 1944 - I think for example Fw 190 In Action -booklet has picture(s?) from this period).

When did II/SG4 change tactical codes from alphabets to numerals and did it indeed do that? A loss list analysis would be the answer, but perhaps someone does have the data already (also quicker and easier for me... am a bit lazy) (clarfication added later: I do not have any SG4 loss data at the moment). I hope there are others interested in the ground-attack units above me. A theme I would love to see more publications to be devoted to.


Regards,
Kari

Hi Kari,

You're not the only one interested in Luftwaffe ground-attack units and operations!

Attached is an article I'll add to my FW 190 website in the near future, with a list of known aircraft codes for S.G. 4 FW 190s. There are some obvious gaps in my listings, but hopefully the article is of interest/use anyway. If anyone can add more information regarding S.G. 4 codes, please contact me.

If I find the time, I'll probably do up lists for the rest of the S.G. units.

Cheers,
Andrew Arthy

Webmaster - http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/index.html

"You'll never silence the voice of the voiceless" - Rage Against The Machine

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello Anderw and others!

Thank you very much for the list. The bad thing is that it brings the whole Luftflotte JaBo 1944 identifications back to the zero. In many places* "letter + -" (II Gruppe) Fw 190shave been identified as from II/SG 4 that I thought it was cast in stone. Not so, it seems now...

Certainly a subject that needs more research work, at least in my opinion.


* For Example Fw 190 In Action ("No. nineteen") p 45 "-+E>". On page 44 there is white "- + E" with similar spinner (yellow with vhite&black spiral ?)
Same photo of "-+E>" is in the book "Stuka" on same page as the "D". They are also identified as being from II/SG 4.


Cheers,
Kari