Martin 167 A3

[musec04]

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a Vichy era Martin 167 A3 with a star and crescent marking in the vicinity of the nose. I assume this is a personal rather than a unit marking?


https://www.ebay.com/itm/35546200041...UAAOSwVcBly5zZ


Regards,


Clint

[Buckeye30]

Clint ;this is the insignia of Aeronavale Sqn. 3B of Vichy Aviation Fleet 3F (not sure of correct translation), it's a reference to service in the Rif region of N. Morocco. The unit re-equipped with SBDs and then SB2Cs later. There were only 13 Martins in Africa in 1942 (TORCH).

The red-yellow Vichy stripes were known as "Slave's pyjamas" ie. forced work for the Nazis.


Regards
Nick

[musec04]

Thanks for the unit id Nick.


The term of Slave Pyjamas, a term used by the Armee de l'air personnel themselves or the western Allies?


Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Buckeye30

Clint ;this is the insignia of Aeronavale Sqn. 3B of Vichy Aviation Fleet 3F (not sure of correct translation), it's a reference to service in the Rif region of N. Morocco. The unit re-equipped with SBDs and then SB2Cs later. There were only 13 Martins in Africa in 1942 (TORCH).

Regards
Nick

Escadrille 3B is correct (former 3B2). Its origin can be traced back to 5B2 in 1925 (which went to Morocco)
However Esc 3B changed name to Esc 3FB when the unit re-equipped with Douglas SBD in May 1944.
By the time the unit changed designation to 3F in Jan 1946 there were no 167s in use.
So Esc 3B (or 3FB) was never part of 3F, it is a re-designation of the same unit.

Cheers
Stig

[twocee]

Stig,

In the Crosnier/DuBois book on the French SBDs it states that the Martin 167F-equipped 2B and 3B were disbanded in April 1944 and reformed at Agadir as the 3rd flottille de bombardment (3FB) to fly the SBD. Similarly, the disbanded 6B and 7B (leO 451) reformed as 4FB, also with the SBD. As you are probably aware, they were known to the US Navy in Morocco as VFB-1 and VFB-2, respectively.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Well George

By French way of seeing things, you may well be correct in stating each unit disbanded and
then reformed. However with the knowledge about the importance of tradition in France all these
units used the same symbol and while I am not promising to eat my hat if I use the wrong terminology
here, each unit certainly traced itself back to the original 5B2 via 3B2, 3B, 3RB and finally 3F.
So perhaps re-designation is not the correct word, but I can't come up with something better.

Cheers
Stig

[twocee]

Well Stig, your French may be better than mine, so here is what our friend Jean-Pierre actually said:

"Apres la dissolution des escadrilles 2B et 3B a la mi-Avril 1944, les equipages de ces deux formations sont regroupes a....Agadir. Ils constituent alors la 3 flotilla de bombardment."

"Les escadrilles 6B and 7B, dissoutes depuis Juin 1943, renaissent sur la base d'Agadir le 6 Mai 1944 au sein de la 4FB".

[FalkeEins]

Originally Posted by Buckeye30

The red-yellow Vichy stripes were known as "Slave's pyjamas" ie. forced work for the Nazis.

..never encountered this before. Any source? It was Vichy/Petain who first mentioned 'collaboration', nothing forced about it...

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by twocee

Well Stig, your French may be better than mine, so here is what our friend Jean-Pierre actually said:

"Apres la dissolution des escadrilles 2B et 3B a la mi-Avril 1944, les equipages de ces deux formations sont regroupes a....Agadir. Ils constituent alors la 3 flotilla de bombardment."

"Les escadrilles 6B and 7B, dissoutes depuis Juin 1943, renaissent sur la base d'Agadir le 6 Mai 1944 au sein de la 4FB".

Indeed George
3 Flotilla de Bombardment (3FB)

All I can say is that the units which used this motive were
5B2 formed at Cuers in Jan 1925 > Morocco > disbanded June 1927
3B2 formed at Berre in April 1928 > 3B in Oct 1938 > disbanded April 1944
3FB formed at Agadir May 1944 > 3F Jan 1946

Source Ardhan publication Les Insignes des Formation de 'Aeronautique Navale.

2B used the motive of a Gazelle's head which is not present anywhere with 3F as far as I can see.
I know it was connected to 3FB since they both used the Martin 167, but I have no information
it actually became a part of it.
Not impossible, since it was disbanded 21 April 1944.
This Gazelle's head was later used by 11F when it formed in July 1952.

No idea how accurate this site is, but it also mentions the formation of 3F in Jan 1946.
http://www.wings-aviation.ch/33-Aero...lottile-03.htm

Cheers
Stig

[Faenor]

Hi all, there is the link with some of the photos of same type of plane:
http://modelari.org/viewtopic.php?t=208&start=10

this one
http://modelari.org/download/file.ph...1138&mode=view
http://modelari.org/download/file.ph...1139&mode=view

Page 2 - post from 22 bře 2015, 09:54, there are 2 photos of plane with white number 5 - no red/yellow stripes but white stripe on fuselage (another marking of Vichy plane) - is it plane from same unit?

Thank you

Faenor