13.(Pz)/JG51 between 16.Mar.43 and 28.May43

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello,

I trying to clear up the location of 13.(Pz)/JG51 (Hs129) between 16.Mar. and 28.May.43.

According to "Ultra" intercepts, 16.Mar.43 the Staffel was in Poltava; 28.May.43 was the first known loss of 13.(Pz)/JG51 in Kuban bridgehead.

Between these dates is darkness. Published sources gives nothing about the timeframe in question with exception of "Hs129 Panzerjäger" by Martin Pegg. He wrote that 13.(Pz)/JG51 was in Kharkov in April but the source of this statement is unclear.
The date of the appearance of the Staffel in Kuban bridgehead is especially interesting.

Maybe some new sources floated up (pilot's logbooks etc)?

Best regards,
Andrey

[Larry deZeng]

Hi Andrey,

I don't have much more than you do, but here it is:

20 Feb 43: reported 4(2) Hs 129s on strength.
21 Feb 43: at Poltava.
15 Apr 43: at Kharkov in support of VIII. Fliegerkorps along the Oskol Bend some 150 km NE of the city.
28 May 43 (1 Jun 43?): Hs 129 B-2 failed to return from operations in the Krymskaya area/Kuban, 100%, Oblt. Friedrich Seuken MIA.
1 Jun 43: Kharkov - Staffel brought up to full strength in early June.
2 Jul 43: all or elements are believed to have moved forward to Mikoyanovka/25 km SW of Belgorod for Operation Zitadelle, the so-called Kursk counteroffensive which began on 5 July.

[Sources:
PRO AIR 40/1966 and 1980; Aders and Held-op cit:134.
M.Pegg-op cit:130.
M.Pegg-op cit:144.
M.Pegg-op cit:144.

It looks like maybe the Staffel stood down at Kharkov to rest and refit?

L.

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Thank you, Larry!

Originally Posted by Larry deZeng

15 Apr 43: at Kharkov in support of VIII. Fliegerkorps along the Oskol Bend some 150 km NE of the city.

What is the source? (About exact date 15.Apr.43)

Originally Posted by Larry deZeng

1 Jun 43: Kharkov - Staffel brought up to full strength in early June.

It seems the last combat day of 13.(Pz)/JG51 in Kuban bridgehead was 3.Jun.43 so the Staffel rebased to Kharkov a bit later.

"Ultra" mentioned on 13.Jul.43 that previous news about 13.(Pz)/JG51 were on 16.Mar.43. If the remark of Bletchley Park's officer is correct, the Staffel wasn't mentioned in radiograms for 4 months, though it moved from VIII.Fl.Korps to I.Fl.Korps and then back, and had some very hot combat days in the end of May - beginning of June at least. Amazing.

Best regards,
Andrey

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Larry, have you additional info about 4.(Pz)/SchG2 in April-May 1943 also? The date of its arriving to Crimea is unclear.

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

And a question to German-speaking forum members:

From phone conversation of Army commanders (HGr 'A'):
"Die Luftwaffe hat mit allen Kraeften eingegriffen. Ihr werden noch drei Kampfgeschwader und 2 Pz-Jg.Staffeln zugeführt."

Are these sentences means that 3 Geschwader and 2 Pz.Jg.Staffeln should be draw from outside [of Kuban/Crimea]?

Best regards,
Andrey

[Larry deZeng]

Andrey -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry deZeng View Post
15 Apr 43: at Kharkov in support of VIII. Fliegerkorps along the Oskol Bend some 150 km NE of the city.
What is the source? (About exact date 15.Apr.43)

My notes have this as the source for 15 April:
M.Pegg-op cit:130.

Larry, have you additional info about 4.(Pz)/SchG2 in April-May 1943 also? The date of its arriving to Crimea is unclear.

1 Mar 43: at Bari with 4 x Hs 129s on strength.
11 Mar 43: ordered to transfer immediately from Bari to Berlin-Staaken, pick up factory-new Hs 129Bs, then proceed to Zaporozhye/SE Ukraine for assignment to Luftflotte 4.

Crimea and Ukraine. (Apr 43 - Oct 43)
14 Apr 43: in reserve at Zaporozhye under Führer d. Panzerjägerstaffeln.
May 43: Staffel now at Kerch on the eastern tip of Crimea and in action over the Taman Peninsula.
1 Jun 43: Hs 129B-2 shot down and 2 more shot up around Krymskaya on the Taman Peninsula, 1 pilot MIA.
Jun 43: returned to Zaporozhye in early June to rest and re-equip.
1 Jul 43: Staffel reported 17 x Hs 129B-2 on strength.
2 Jul 43: transferred from Zaporozhye to Varvarovka/NW of Kharkov and Mikoyanovka/8 km SW of Belgorod on or about this date to take part in the German offensive against the Kursk salient (Operation “Zitadelle”).
Sources:
ULTRA VM5637.
ULTRA VM6346; Dierich-op cit.
M.Pegg-op cit:130.
BA-MA Freiburg: RL 2 III Meldungen über Flugzeugunfälle…..(Loss Reports – LRs).
M.Pegg-op cit:144.
M.Pegg-op cit:145.

It's not much but I hope it helps! Unfortunately, I have no information on exactly when in May it transferred from Zaporozhye to Crimea.

L.

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Larry, thank you once more!

So, 2nd half of April and May still in fog.
It is pity, that coverage of such interesting (and important) units is so incomplete.
No documents, no "Ultra", no logbooks, no POWs ... Nothing

I'll try to dig something from Army documents. It isn't the 1st attempt, but ...

[matthias74]

Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov

And a question to German-speaking forum members:

From phone conversation of Army commanders (HGr 'A'):
"Die Luftwaffe hat mit allen Kraeften eingegriffen. Ihr werden noch drei Kampfgeschwader und 2 Pz-Jg.Staffeln zugeführt."

Are these sentences means that 3 Geschwader and 2 Pz.Jg.Staffeln should be draw from outside [of Kuban/Crimea]?

Best regards,
Andrey

Yes, it says: “Luftwaffe intervened with all forces. Three KG and two Pz.Jg.Staffeln will still be assigned / supplied”

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Matthias, thank you!

The phone call in question was on 26.May43. It seems one of the Staffeln was 13.(Pz)/JG51. 2nd is questionable. Maybe it was 4.(Pz)/SchG2, if it was temporary withdrawn from Kuban in May, or 4.(Pz)/SchG1 before withdraw for the rest and recuperation.

Best regards,
Andrey