info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders

[Andre Stewart]

Hi focusfocus,

Referring to your photo of a Bf 110 rudder with two claims

7/9/39 1 polish
15/4/40 1 br

I./ZG1 scored 3 victories on 7 Sep 1939, these being claimed by Oblt Ehle, Oblt Molders and Lt Wilhelm Spies. And since we know that both Ehle and Spies had 2 claims in Poland, the only one with 1 claim on 7 Sep must be Oblt Molders.

We also know that Molders' claim on 7 Sep is his first, as he himself mentions it in the old book "Bf 110 At War" by Armand van Ishoven. So my own 'theory' for this rudder is that he made another [previously unknown] claim on 15 Apr 1940, but this was not confirmed. But I have no way to validate this.

Uffz Helmut Eberlein is not listed as one of the pilots with Polish claims. He had one other claim on 14 May but was then KIA on 15 May 1940.

So from what I know --

- Photo no.1 = Molders
- Photo no.2 = unknown
- Photo no.3 = unknown but very likely a pilot in II./ZG1
- Photo nos. 4 and 5 = already identified as Falck and Spies respectively.

Can you attach a scan of Photo no.2, or give me a url where I can find it? I ask 'cos I've not seen this particular rudder before and it's a mystery I'd like to investigate. Thank you.


Hi Johannes,

Regarding your question on roundels, the black and white films of that time generally showed red as a darker shade than blue, so in close ups or clear photos one usually can distinguish between the British and French roundels, though in distant or poor quality pictures this is pretty difficult to do. To cite one example, though not for a ZG pilot -- recently eBay sold a photo of Wolfgang Lippert's rudder [attached here]. If you zoom in on those dates that can be seen, and compare them with the types in Woods' lists, you'll find that the rudder clearly differentiates between the French and British types.

And I don't think the ZG pilots were 'not accurate' in their claiming -- theirs is simply a case of records being lost or not surviving the war. ZG2 is a good example -- after they were disbanded end Sept 1940, the unit made a short re-appearance for about 6 months in 1942, then disappeared altogether. No unit means no claims, so no documents to be micro-filmed! But that does not mean there were no aces, Eduard Tratt being a good example.

rgds
andre

[focusfocus]

hi andre

sorry I don't have scan but look to the site Forum.axishistory.com

luftwaffe air units and luftwaffe in general

luftwaffe rudder marking photos page 14,16 ...

photo n°3 not II/ZG 1 (no claims in poland) but I think I/ZG1 ??

who were the pilots who makes claims in poland with the I/ZG1

for Eberlein my theory is
7/09/39
15/4/40
10/5/40
10/5/40
??/5/40
??/5/40
14/5/40 his last

regards

[Larry Hickey]

focusfocus,

I've had a high interest in this subject for many years, as we're recreating high quality profiles of all the a/c flown by Bf110 pilots who won the RK during 1940, or into very early 1941. So I have every photo I could find on the subject.

I agree with André's listing. The one still listed as U/I (Item #2) is another version of the Victor Molders scoreboard. Apparently the painter applied two different versions of the scoreboard. I have photos of both of them. Your theory about Eberlein doesn't hold up. I have the full 1939-40 victory list for 1939-40, and he only scored two victories while he was with I./ZG1: the one, a Hudson, on 15.04.40 and another a Spitfire on 14.05.40. He had no other victories with 1./ZG1 so this couldn't represent him. I have no info on victories by him with 1./ZG1 during either the PC or the WC.

Regarding Item #3, I have this image, and I believe that the most likely pilot is Ofw Johannes Lütter ? originally with II./ZG1 but by this time with II./SG210.

[focusfocus]

hi larry

receipt 5 on 5!

domage for ma theory about Eberlein !!

it is very strange that the painter applied two different version of scoreboard
of one pilot (molders) but why not!!

regards

[Evgeny Velichko]

one with eleven claims : 1st orange triangle
2nd to 8th roundels
9th to 11th reds stars

Gunther Tonne of II./ZG1 probably.

another with eight claims : 1st to 3rd polish
4th to 8th roundels

If swastika is of old stile (in the center of fin), it could be Oblt. Werner Methfessel of 14.(Z)/LG1. He had 3 in Poland and more in France, untill his death.

[focusfocus]

hi Evgeny

me I have 4 claims in poland for Methfessel

03/09/39
04/09/39
05/09/39
07/09/39
23/11/39 1x morane 406 ( unfounded claim)
29/03/40 2x hurricanes (unfounded claims) vs 1° squadron RAF
02/04/40 1x morane 406 (real claiming!!) vs "groupe de chasse" I/2

regards

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

As far as I know, a photo of the rudder of Oblt Werner Methfessel's Bf110C during 1939-40 with 14(Z)/LG1 has never surfaced. If anyone knows differently, I'd like to hear from them, as we'd like to profile that a/c for the Eagles Over Europe Project. His a/c later when he was with night fighters has been published, but I know about that one.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Nightfighter? Are You sure? Does'nt he was shot down and killed by Flak in may '40 over Reims?

[focusfocus]

my informations about Methfessel: not killed by flak but by hurricanes

17/05/1940 V.(Z)/LG1 vs 1°sqd RAF

losses 14° staffel

1 bf 110 ( oblt Werner Methfessel) killed "rosnay" N O reims
1 bf 110 ( uffz Friedrich schmitt) killed "hermonville" N O reims
1 bf 110 ( lt Kurt Schalkhauser) safe "saint-brice-courcelle"

claims:

fw Gerhard Jenzsch 1x hurricane ( 13° staffel)
gef. Jwuhof 1x spitfire(?) ( 13° staffel) Who is this guy??never heard from him!!


losses 1°squadron RAF

F/O Palmer
F/LT Walker "force- landed
Sgt Soper "crash-landed"

well: it would seem that among the killed pilots,one of those this obtained a victory

regards

[Evgeny Velichko]

Thx for correction. Wrote by memory. Fighters, not Flak. Anyway, he didnt survive.