Me262 ID needed.

[ouidjat]

Originally Posted by David E. Brown

Hi Roland,

Well, personally I would trust the photos more than the list.

I've compared the images of this machine against photos of known 1118xxx-11199x machines and this kite wears a demonstrably different camouflage and markings scheme. I believe it probable that the werknummer was transcribed correctly from a machine there but incorrectly matched to this aircraft. Indeed, the (in)famous 26 April 1945 München-Riem Me 262 listing has a number of obvious transcription errors. For example, the JV 44 machine WNr.111074. That werknummer does not fit into the sequence of the 111xxx-series. But 111704 certainly does. An Me 262 A-1a was found at Bad Aibling with this werknummer visible in a photo, and, its verbandkennzeichen "White 7".

I believe that WNR.111974 is a valid werknummer and better fits another aircraft found at Innsbruck-Hötting, but not this one.

Cheers,

David

So I did put the two photos and got your comments.
Now can start the discussion ...

I'm not able to comment the details developed here by David but I'm not convinced that "Weisse 8" is pictured at Hötting for the following reason:
Looking at the photo published in excellent Dan's book I can see in background a long house/row of houses just above the fuselage.
Where was this row of house at Hötting please?

One caption I've read says Salzburg-Maxglan.

BR, Franck.

[Nick Beale]

There were two airfields at Innsbruck and Me 262s were found at both.

[ouidjat]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

There were two airfields at Innsbruck and Me 262s were found at both.

Anything more consistent?

[Karoband]

Gentlemen,

Just to pour some gasoline on the fire,

from O'Connell, Production Log, (2005), p. 177:

500492 Me 262 A Between 17:30 and 17:47 on 29 April 1945 Ofw. Albert Bruck of
2./Fl.U.G. 1 made the 95 km. ferry flight from Munchen-Brunnthal to Innsbruck-Reichenau where it was 30 percent damaged on landing.

To my eye White 1+ S does not have 30% damage.

Best regards,
Jim Geens

[Dan O'Connell]

That describes White 8.

[David E. Brown]

HI Jim,

Not at all. I believe that your suggestion makes the most sense given the data available. The photo of the machine on page 145 of Dan's book was definitely taken at Innsbruck-Reichenau looking towards the southeast across the river. I compared some other images of the site and they match what is seen in the photo.

It is interesting that in all the extant photos of Me 262s at München-Riem I do not recall seeing any aircraft that could be identified as being associated with EJG 2. But there were at nearby Brunnthal, e.g. White 9, WNr.111617; and White 2, WNr.170071. Apparently only two aircraft made it to Innsbruck-Reichenau and both from III./EJG 2: White 1, WNr.170047 (from where?), and White 8, above (from Brunnthal). As far as I know, the identified aircraft at Innsbruck-Hötting are all JV 44 machines plus at least one KG 51 kite, and where we have visible werknummern appear on the 26 April 1945 list. Of course there could be others that were not with the unit; for example those aircraft being "converted" at the DLH facilities. Perhaps a couple of those were airworthy and made it out ahead of M-R's capture.

Anyway, your suggestion makes the most sense given the evidence we have. Thanks for sharing!

Cheers,

David

[ouidjat]

Hi Gents,

Aaaah, thank you Jim, Dan and David, seems more consistent.
...
BTW, let me remind you what David did write some times ago:
"Hi Dan,
Actually, there were TWO Me 262s at Innsbruck(1). I found the second deep in the background of a photo and it is certainly a JV 44 kite as the number '1' was in the standard position just ahead of the fuselage cross. "We.1", 170047 was from III./EJG 2 and must have been one of the many aircraft dumped on JV 44 at München in mid-April to get ahead of US forces closing in on Lechfeld. The presence on a second "we.1" helps explain the lack of references of its use with JV 44. Indeed, the first 12 or so Me 262s that JV got appear to have all come directly from the factories.
Cheers,
David Brown" (sic)
(1) Reichenau in the thread context.
...
Last - from unknown source (I guess a pdf on internet). Sorry - what is that machine and where?

Regards, Franck.

[RolandF]

Looking at p.145 of Dan´s production log it is actually Innsbruck-Reichenau where the photo of "white 8" has been taken.

Here´s for comparison purposes a photo of the situation of Reichenau a/f amidst housing at the outskirts of Innsbruck. No wonder the runway was too short for the Me 262:

http://www.sagen.at/texte/gegenwart/...emknochen.html

The "S" on the fuselage and the big blotches of paint suggest that the plane has received a certain amount of structural damage before (with III./EJG 2?), was repaired, repainted and flown by FlÜG 1 to Innsbruck. Reichenau and Hötting aren´t far apart and Hötting at this time was nothing more than a huge meadow (Just read R.Forsyth´s comments in the final chapter of his "JV 44"). No wonder two pilots mistook Reichenau for Hötting.

The photos show the typical segmented camouflage on the fuselage beneath the cockpit and the overpainting of the (originally brighter?) fuselage sides with big blotches. The 500xxx series overpainted the at a certai stage of production (pre-painting of pre-fabricated fuselages?) brighter fuselage sides regularly with darkgreen - see the colour analysis of WNr 500200.

WNr 111974 seems to have taken this measurement - like many other jets - on repair shop basis.

Regards

RolandF

[Karoband]

Originally Posted by ouidjat

Hi Gents,
Last - from unknown source (I guess a pdf on internet). Sorry - what is that machine and where?

Regards, Franck.

Hi Franck,

I think the picture is from this source:

http://www.103didww2assn.org/photos.htm

Scroll down and click on Phase III.

The shape of the high-tension hydro poles and the dark knoll beside the spinner of the Fw 190 place the Me 262 on the far side of the meadow at Hotting across from "Poplar Alley".

The light wash of the camouflage that left the masking of the ribs exposed suggests this Me 262 was possibly from the 1133xx series.

best regards,

Jim

[Tony Kambic]

The second image is fairly clear and the elusive Me262 data plate does not seem to exist on the fuselage. Possibly already removed as a souvenir.

Tony