German pilots straffing civilians in France and England 1940

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Originally Posted by Smudger Smith

I agree these actions should be reported and open to discussion, however lets not restrict ourselves to one particular airforce.

I agree. Civilian deads due to bombings are a main caracteristic of modern warfare, even with all the technology now available.

It's easy to call airmen war criminals, when civilians or hospitals are hit but in many cases, they behave the same in enemy or Allied territory.

There were far more friendly fire errors by bombers than hospital bombings, so probably a good part are an error.

And a French civilian had more chances to be killed if he drived in summer 1944 under Allied bullets than in June 1940 under German ones.

Anyway, that should not stop people asking about these subjects. Or some bad cases may be thought to be the norm.

In that case, as I said before, road strafing is often mentionned in Exode stories but is more rarely confirmed by historical local studies (that far more often will describe bombings of stations, ports, bridges or airfields, that killed civilians too) or official reports.

The same local history books on the contrary will often have one or several examples of road strafing by Allied fighters in 1944, either on German units, on civilians vehicles (or carts) or on Resistance convoys.

[christian]

Hi Franek

What do you mean about the JG 54 at the 5. September 1940. I think you mean the second combat on the afternoon, targets were Oil- an Gasolinetanks between Southend and Tilbury. The loss were two dead pilots from the III.Gruppe, one from the II.Gruppe and a rescud pilot from the same Gruppe. Five victorys from the JG 54.

Christian

[Franek Grabowski]

Christian
Yes, I mean the afternoon sortie targetting Petrol (it is England) tanks in Thameshaven area. IIRC Josef Frantisek's report mentions German pilots attacking airmen on parachutes.

Laurent
Thanks for the reply. I am focused on the events of 1939-1940, when the straffing terror was born. Certainly military targets were of much more attention of the Luftwaffe, nonetheless there are numerous mentions of attacks on purely civilian targets but nothing in kind of detailed reports. I am just curious how many such attacks really occured and are documented.

David
Indeed I am awared of such friendly fire incidents. Thanks for reminding, it adds some perspective as well.

Smudger
Do I have to remind you the German media offensive against Bomber Harris' monument? Everyone knows of Dresden but not everyone ever heard about Wielun or Blitz, events that occured more than 5 years before. It seems German attacks remain undocumented, so I took the liberty of asking my own questions and posted here.

[Smudger Smith]

I was there at the unveiling of the monument to Harris, I was present when the anti war brigade started to hurl abuse and shout over the speech by our late Queen Mother. I am also aware of the campaign by certain fractions of the German media and my own media here in England.

As I have said, this subject should be discussed but in context, ALL nations, ALL airforces carried out such actions, why restrict it to just the Luftwaffe, or is it a German thing. ?

The vast majority of people (not those in the aviation field who can view the subject with at times some clarity ) take on board this “ sensationalism “ and usually refer to this type of incident when wanting to ridicule those who served and jump on the anti war soap box.

I am also aware that a majority of people especially in Germany look at the bomber offensive in a more philosophical way. That my opinion. The Bombing of civilians in what ever guise can be traced back to WW.1.

Regarding the Blitz, I am from London, my parents lived through the Blitz, and we lost family members in the Blitz. A school in Catford SE London , 3 miles from were I live was destroyed by 2 or 3 Fw190 killing a number of children in 1942-1943. However, having researched and studied the Air War over Europe and particularly the operations by RAF Bomber Command I can confirm that such tragic events unfolded every single day. To pin-point one airforce’s actions is counterproductive.

My rant is over, I’m off to the pub to have a drink of German beer. :P

[Franek Grabowski]

Such actions of 1939-1940 involved only one side (well, possibly two including Soviet Union), they predecessed later actions and I am interested only in the former. My context is a comparison of German warcrimes in Poland and during 1940 Blitz.
I have a right to ask whatever questions I wish but nobody can forbid you to ask another question on this or Allied forum as well.
Having said that I expect some serious answers and not a PC discussion.

[David Ransome]

Hi,
I have to agree with Franek, one whom I have always found to be fairly well balanced in his approach, and who can separate facts from emotions - something I consider necessary in any area of research. Franek has an interest in a particular area and I dare say that a similar question could have been aired, vice versa, on the Allied forum.

I would find it of interest if someone else went away with the info that Franek and others pull together to give a 'heliview' although - as I'm sure we are all aware - it would just prove that, as in politics, there is good and bad in all parties!

As regards civilians in cases of war one doesn't need to have studied at Sandhurst or West Point to know that in pre-history they would often be put to death if not enslaved by the victorious side. A signed paper agreement, or thoughts as to what is currently 'PC', has not, does not and never will stop these sorts of things from happening. We are all human, we are all different, we never truly know how we would react in any situation until we reach it. What is 'PC' in one culture may not be in another - who decides which one is correct?

Now, can anyone give Franek the sort of info that he requires?

Kind regards to all,

David

[Franek Grabowski]

David
Thanks for your kind words. I am afraid, however, that this is one of those obvious questions that nobody ever bothered to answer.
As a side note to PC discussion, an Italian journal wrote recently on Polish(!) concentration camp in Auschwitz-Birkenau. I am afraid that with such a knowledge and bad will, one day we learn Poland attacked Germany and was joined by Britain, the latter starting holocaust.
Best wishes