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Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union. |
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#1
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Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
PLEASE FIND BELOW A REQUEST I HAVE RECIEVED FROM A FRIEND.
I AM SURE SOMEONE ON THIS FORUM WILL BE ABLE TO HELP? Pilot P/O Keith Gillman. Keith was posted missing in action after combat over the English Channel on 25 August 1940. And there are many myths and mis-information about him! This includes the official version that he was shot down - I have never believed that he was. I need to look into the claims of Helmut Wick for that afternoon, I think he claimed two RAF aircraft, one of which was a Hurricane, in the Portland area around late afternoon. I believe one of these was a Hurricane (please correct me if I am wrong). What I need to establish is who the pilots of those two RAF casualties were (thus probably eliminating Keith Gillman from the equation). Do you happen to know? This is all as a result of some information I received recently which, although seemingly not making too much sense, nevertheless I have to check out. Finding out who those two British aircraft belonged to that Wick claimed is thus essential! I have looked on various websites, etc, for details of Wick's claims, and of course 'BoB - Then and Now', etc, but with no luck. |
#2
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Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
Hi Jon,
you are writing about P/O K.R. Gillman from 32 RAF? If yes he was most probably shot down in Dover area by I/JG26 fighters (probably Lt.Ludwig Hafer). Wick (and many others pilots) claimed 2 victories in Portland area (18`25 one Hurricane, 18`30 one Spitfire) but it was against 152 and 213 RAF squadrons. Regards Robert |
#3
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Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
All known claims on this day (source: Tony Wood's claimlist):
25.08.40 Maj. Wolfgang Schellmann: 9 ► Stab/JG 2 Spitfire £ Warmwell 18.30 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-1B 25.08.40 Oblt. Helmut Wick: 19 ► 3./JG 2 Hurricane £ Portland 18.25 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-150B 25.08.40 Oblt. Helmut Wick: 20 ► 3./JG 2 Spitfire £ Portland 18.30 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-151B 25.08.40 Fw. Fritz Stritzel: 5 ► 3./JG 2 Spitfire £ S.W. Wareham: 5.500 m. 18.32 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-152 25.08.40 Oblt. Helmut-Felix Bolz: 3 ► 5./JG 2 Spitfire £ Dorchester 18.35 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-42B 25.08.40 Oblt. Hans Hahn: 6 ► 4./JG 2 Spitfire £ Dorchester 18.35 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-Add: 25.08.40 Oblt. Carl-Hans Röders: 4 ► 9./JG 2 Hurricane £ Weymouth 18.34 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-33 25.08.40 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Metz: 3 8./JG 2 Hurricane £ Portland 18.35 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-36 25.08.40 Fw. Karl Ebert: n.b. 8./JG 2 Hurricane £ Portland 18.35 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-nil 25.08.40 Maj. Adolf Galland: 22 ► Stab/JG 26 Spitfire £ Dungeness-Folkestone: 3.000 m. 19.50 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-1 25.08.40 Ltn. Ludwig Hafer: 2 Stab I./JG 26 Hurricane £ W. Folkestone: 2.500 m. 19.30 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-41 25.08.40 Fw. Wilhelm Müller: 8 ► 3./JG 26 Spitfire £ Kanal-über See 19.35 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-42B 25.08.40 Fw. Wilhelm Müller: 9 3./JG 26 Spitfire £ Dover-Calais: 3.000 m. 19.40 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-43 25.08.40 Oblt. Kurt Ruppert: 4 ► 3./JG 26 Spitfire £ südlich Calais 19.50 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-44B 25.08.40 Fw. Konrad Carl: 3 ► 9./JG 26 Spitfire £ - 19.50 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-126B 25.08.40 Ltn. Josef Bürschgens: 9 ► Stab III./JG 26 Hurricane £ Littlestone: 3.500 m. 19.55 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-127B 25.08.40 Oblt. Karl Fischer: 1 7./JG 27 Hurricane £ Portland 18.40 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-122 25.08.40 Fw. Emil Clade: 5 ► 7./JG 27 Spitfire £ westlich Portland 18.42 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-123B 25.08.40 Oblt. Ludwig Franzisket: 13 ► 7./JG 27 Hurricane £ Portland 18.55 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-124B 25.08.40 Ltn. Ernst-Albrecht Schultz: 2 ► 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ S.W. Portland 18.26 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-108 25.08.40 Uffz. Herbert Tzschoppe: 1 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ südl. Portland: 6.200 m. 18.29 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-109B 25.08.40 Hptm. Hans-Karl Mayer: 15 ► 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ W. Portland: 6.000-300 m. 18.30 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-110 25.08.40 Oblt. Hans Ohly: 4 ► 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ Portland: 6.000-300 m. 18.30 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-111 25.08.40 Oblt. Gebhard Dittmar: 2 Stab I./JG 53 Hurricane £ N.W. Portland: 5.000 m. 18.30 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-112 25.08.40 Uffz. Herbert Tzschoppe: 2 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ Portland: 6.200 m. 18.31 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-113 25.08.40 Ltn. Alfred Zeis: 3 ► 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ südlich Portland: 6.000-300 m. 18.38 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-114B 25.08.40 Ltn. Ernst-Albrecht Schultz: 3 ► 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ südlich Portland 18.46 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-115B 25.08.40 Fw. Walter Margstein: 2 ► 6./JG 53 Spitfire £ 10 km. S.W. Portland: 4-5.000 m. 18.32 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-62 25.08.40 Oblt. Günther Schulze-Blanck: 4 ► 4./JG 53 Spitfire £ - 18.40 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-63B 25.08.40 Hptm. Hans von Hahn: 7 ► 8./JG 53 Spitfire £ 10 km. öst Südspitz Portland: 3.800 m. 18.27 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-132B 25.08.40 Oblt. Heinz Kunert: 8 ► 8./JG 53 Spitfire £ 10 km. öst Südspitz Portland: 3.800 m. 18.29 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-133B 25.08.40 Ltn. Jakob Stoll: 6 ► 8./JG 53 Spitfire £ 10 km. öst Südspitz Portland: 3.800 m. 18.36 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-134B 25.08.40 Maj. Hannes Trautloft: 6 ► Stab/JG 54 Spitfire £ Ärmelkanal 20.20 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-1 25.08.40 Hptm. Hubertus von Bonin: 6 ► Stab I./JG 54 Spitfire £ - 20.10 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-31B 25.08.40 Ltn. Siegfried Graf Matuschka: 1 2./JG 54 Spitfire £ - 20.10 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-32B 25.08.40 Oblt. Günther Scholz: 5 ► 7./JG 54 Spitfire £ westlich Folkestone: 7.500 m. 20.10 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-77 25.08.40 Fw. Max Clerico: 4 ► 7./JG 54 Spitfire £ westlich Folkestone: 7.500 m. 20.10 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-78 25.08.40 Fw. Siegfried Göbel (2?) ► 5./ZG 76 Spitfire £ - 18.15 OKL C. 2031/I Nr.51037/41 25.08.40 Ltn. Karl Helmer (4?) ► 5./ZG 76 Spitfire £ - 18.20 OKL C. 2031/I Nr.51037/41 25.08.40 Oblt. Ernst-Hartmann v. Schlotheim 5./ZG 76 Spitfire £ - 18.30 OKL C. 2031/I Nr.51037/41 I won't be surprised if other ZG units claimed victories this day but most of ZG units' claims have been "lost" AFAIK. Given that all airbattles took place in the evening this day, I think any identication of a given claim will always be hypothetical. |
#4
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Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
Wick was not the wonder horse you think. He was leading the claims race when he was killed, however unlike Molders and Galland he was not an honest claimer!
Johannes |
#5
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Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
Jon,
You can discount any connection with the claims of WICK and the loss of Keith GILLMAN on August 25, 1940. Both timing and location simply do not relate. If GILLMAN fell to enemy fighters then, as Robert says, JG26 filed the more likely claims. |
#6
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Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
As something of an aside, I am pleased to have been - so far as research can say - his 18th - helping him on his way. Pleased because he was an Ace!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1.../RAF2/wick.jpg = Tim |
#7
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Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
Tim. I am sure you will have this but if you want, I can send you a photo showing Wick's Bf 109 tail and 'you' marked as 18 on the rudder
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#8
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Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
Tim,
I presume to speak on behalf of other forum members in saying that we are equally pleased that you survived the encounter and are still around to tell the tale. |
#9
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Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
Hi guys - especially as the experts are present!
On the subject of Helmut Wick, is is correct that he probably shot down a Ju88 in error circa 13 August 1940, and, if so, was this the LG1 aircraft that crashed near Cherbourg? Cheers Brian |
#10
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Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
Brian,
I have no knowledge of any such claim. |
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