Help with identifying German pilot taken prisoner on July 13, 1943

[yogybär]

If the date is wrong, it could have been this quite famous man / loss:

"Bf 109G-4 W.Nr. 19341 schwarze 3, BK+YS (100%) 8./J.G. 52
Lüty, Oblt. Gerhard (DK) MIA, cause unknown. Notlandung behind enemy lines. Ugrim F
"

At least it is an Oberleutnant in a 109...

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, all

In my opinion, the loss records are very good as a source for what happened. Recollections and witness reports are at best a hint to what might have happened, and dates given must be recorded in writing to be at least vaguely accurate in my opinion.

Looking at the known details, II./J.G.3 had a total of 5 aircraft damaged on this date, none of these were total losses, and none indicates personnel being wounded, killed or lost in action. The J.G.52 has not reported any losses on this date.

It is of course possible that the records are incomplete, but in my experience, the records seems to be quite exhaustive, at least when personnel losses are involved.

My best tip would be to try to get a fix on the date (was it really the 13th? or was it really the 11th or 12th, but the diary entry was written on the 13th? Or could it be that the capture occured on the 13th, while the aircraft in fact was shot down on the 10th?)

To solve this we should also try to obtain the name of the Oberleutnant supposedly captured, and search among all units in the area. As stated earlier in the thread, it wasn't necessarily a Bf 109 either...

My tip is in fact that it is a FW 190A-5 we are talking about here... and that the confusion stems from the fact that the Oberleutnant flying this and listed as missing was named Messerschmidt...

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=107195

Kind of a cute explanation isn't it

But - the date fits, the unit was in the correct area.... but of course I have no idea if the fate of this officer has been described in other publications, and thus will not fit to those reasons...

Regards,
Andreas

[kalender1973]

Originally Posted by yogybär

If the date is wrong, it could have been this quite famous man / loss:

"Bf 109G-4 W.Nr. 19341 schwarze 3, BK+YS (100%) 8./J.G. 52
Lüty, Oblt. Gerhard (DK) MIA, cause unknown. Notlandung behind enemy lines. Ugrim F
"

At least it is an Oberleutnant in a 109...

And he was taken prisoner as stated in:

http://militera.lib.ru/h/timohovich/01.html

with refer to TsAMO

[Pawel Burchard]

Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken

the unit was in the correct area...

Andreas, as far as I know it is impossible for J.G. 51 aircraft to be shot down in Voltschansk area on 13th July 1943.

kind regards,
Pawel

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, Pawel.

You probably know this better than me. The only thing I had to go by was the Order of Battle for the unit commanding the forces in the (rather large...) front area.

So we should probably then dismiss this.

Regards,
Andreas

[Pawel Burchard]

Andreas, the Planquadrat given - 63228/35 Ost - near Archangel'skoe to the east of Orel is just perfect for Messerschmidt loss, especially as there are some claims for Stab I./51 in Qu. 632 on the date.

kind regards,
Pawel

[yogybär]

kalender1972, thanks for the link. Sadly, reading russian is difficult for me but I will work myself through! Seems there might be some more interesting stuff in this article

Concerning Lüty:

He was captured by the RKKA and interogated. AFAIK, he stated some details about high losses of his unit etc.

Additionally, in Günther Ralls memoirs the loss of Lüty is also mentioned roughly as follows:

"
O'lt. Lüty gave alway all his belongings on the day before he was lost and said "tomorrow will be my last day".
"

I see two explanations for this:
1) he was really on the edge of his nerves, which is understandable after 1week of extreme heavy aerial battles never seen before in the East of
2) he wanted to changes sides to the Soviets for what reason ever.