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  #1  
Old 16th November 2007, 09:27
NBE1942 NBE1942 is offline
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Some questions on Flugzeugbestand und bewegungsmeldungen in M.Holm site

Dear Friends,

Who can explain some discrapancies in the German loss records? I am especially interested in Flugzeugbestand und bewegungsmeldungen for each unit listed in Michael Holm's site.
My questions are as following:

1. What is the origin of this lists? Are they emited during the war, or they were summerized after it?
2. Why they start only from March 1942?
3. In the column "Abgang" there are two sub-columns: "Durch Feinw." and "Ohne Feindw", are there only irrevocable losses listed in this two sub-columns?
4. In sub-column "Uberholung" - what kind of losses listed there? Combat and non combat in the air or all planes, including those,exhausted there engine and repair resources?
5. Why there is great difference in quantity of the lost planes between loss lits given in Prien's or Barbas's books and this Flugzeugbestand und bewegungsmeldungen? At the same time Mr. Prien include this Bestandlists in his books, not giving any explanations to figures.

TIA.
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Old 16th November 2007, 10:43
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Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
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Re: Some questions on Flugzeugbestand und bewegungsmeldungen in M.Holm site

1. What is the origin of this lists? Are they emited during the war, or they were summarized after it?

They are wartime reports, held at BA-MA Freiburg.

2. Why they start only from March 1942?

Either because of a change in Luftwaffe procedure or because earlier ones didn't survive.

3. In the column "Abgang" there are two sub-columns: "Durch Feinw." and "Ohne Feindw", are there only irrevocable losses listed in this two sub-columns?

These are aircraft that the unit does not have on strength any more, either through total destruction, return to a factory for repair, major technical failure transfer to another unit.

4. In sub-column "Uberholung" - what kind of losses listed there? Combat and non combat in the air or all planes, including those,exhausted there engine and repair resources?

My understanding is that an overhaul is usually to deal with "wear and tear", not combat damage.

5. Why there is great difference in quantity of the lost planes between loss lits given in Prien's or Barbas's books and this Flugzeugbestand und bewegungsmeldungen? At the same time Mr. Prien include this Bestandlists in his books, not giving any explanations to figures.

My own experience is that the figures in these reports, the 10-day strength returns, the dispoition maps at Freiburg and the losses we know about can all differ. Of course in a war the situation could change very rapidly, so the time of issue of each report is important.
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Old 16th November 2007, 11:18
NBE1942 NBE1942 is offline
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Re: Some questions on Flugzeugbestand und bewegungsmeldungen in M.Holm site

Dear Nick,

Thank you very much for info. But the questions still remain:

These are aircraft that the unit does not have on strength any more, either through total destruction, return to a factory for repair, major technical failure transfer to another unit.

I meant only two sub-columns: "Durch f..." and "ohne f..." Do they together list only irrevocable losses or also below 60% damage and send to repair (thus, temporarily descluded from the unit). I can explain. In some cases total quantity of losses including damaged below 60%, if count GQ list, coinside with the total quantity of lost planes in these two sub-columns for month. And this case what is "uberholung", if all damaged below 60% are included in "durch feindw" and "ohne feindw." sub-columns?

My understanding is that an overhaul is usually to deal with "wear and tear", not combat damage.

Ok. But in this case how planes written off (or sent out of unit) due to exhaustion of motor resource and other details changes, are recorded?

My own experience is that the figures in these reports, the 10-day strength returns, the dispoition maps at Freiburg and the losses we know about can all differ. Of course in a war the situation could change very rapidly, so the time of issue of each report is important.

Does it mean that if the report is issued, e.g. on October 31, it does not obligatory includes every plane movement for the whole October?
Difference between GQ werk nummer records and bewegungsmeldungen, if we take not separate month, but decade or larger period, in the majority occurs to be several dozens of planes. Does it mean that some of the planes were not reported by GQ deliberately or on other reasons?
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Old 17th November 2007, 01:33
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Re: Some questions on Flugzeugbestand und bewegungsmeldungen in M.Holm site

As far as I konw, the columns for durch and ohne Feindeinwirkung represent the loss of an aircraft as far as the unit is concerned - it is either destroyed, missing or so badly damaged that it is taken away or repair and the unit needs to replace it. It may return to service at a later date with the same unit or another one.

Aircraft are recorded as given up to Überholung or to Industrie and I understand that to mean that they were worn out in some respect (perhaps engine wear or structural fatigue) that required prolonged work. Again that aircraft was removed from the unit's strength and should be replaced. Again such an aircraft will probably see more service, perhaps on operations or maybe in a training school.

The only purpose in requiring such a return must be to record the true position, so that supplies can be sent to the right place, new orders can be placed with the factories and so on. I do not recall seeing anything in the Gen.Qu. loss reports which deals with overhaul or transfer to other units, only with loss or damamge through combat or accident.
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Old 17th November 2007, 02:44
David Ransome David Ransome is offline
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Hi Nick,

I agree with all that you said, it certainly ties in with what was said to me a couple of years back by an ex Luftwaffe ministry man (shortly before he passed on, unfortunately). There could be duplication in the records where an aircraft shown as damaged in the loss report was then recorded in the other. There were also, apparently, cases of aircraft returning to their original units bearing their original codes causing some problems where another aircraft in the meantime had been assigned the same codes - although I don't have any records in my own database which specifically show this.

Also, from my notes taken at the time, there would be cases where a unit would expect an aircraft to come back to them after overhaul or repair - again, I don't have any evidence myself other than 'hearsay'. I understood this to be the case particularly where an aircraft was a 'special' for whatever reason.

It would be interesting to hear of anything in support or otherwise!

Regards,

David
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Old 19th November 2007, 09:07
NBE1942 NBE1942 is offline
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Re: Some questions on Flugzeugbestand und bewegungsmeldungen in M.Holm site

Thank you, Gentlemen!
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