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  #1  
Old 30th January 2007, 18:15
keith A keith A is offline
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Luftwaffe loss, 15 October 1941

I am looking for details of a combat between 234 Squadron and Bf109s on this date. 234 claimed 2-0-3, and lost one of their own. Anyone have any ideas?
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  #2  
Old 31st January 2007, 01:04
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Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe loss, 15 October 1941

What theatre of war would this have taken place?

I have a few losses for this date, but not worth posting unless you have a bit more to add.

Best regards,
Andreas B
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Old 31st January 2007, 05:47
kaki3152 kaki3152 is online now
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Re: Luftwaffe loss, 15 October 1941

Funny, from Tony Wood we have:
Lt. Rudiger Kirschmayer -4/JFS-5--1 Spitfire
Uffz Josef Jennewein-4/JFS-5- 1 Spitfire
Uffz Peter Gerth-4/JFS-5 - 2 Spitfire
N.N.- 4/JFS-5 - 2 Spitfires
claimed over Le havre. JFS-5=Jadgfliegerschule 5.

A fighter training school, it must have been flying Bf-109Es.

Only one loss reported by the RAF on this date:
Sgt. H.R. Barnett, shot down into the sea by
Me-109s,1230,off LeHavre.

From the evidence, it appears that all the Bf-109s were shooting at this lone Spitfire. Lt. Kirschmayer and Uffz Jennewein both went to earn Ritterkreuzes. An interesting combat
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Old 1st February 2007, 11:38
keith A keith A is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe loss, 15 October 1941

Hi chaps,

This is weird. I have the combat at 1300 GMT 4M N Le Havre. 6 Bf109F destroyed!
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Old 1st February 2007, 14:50
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe loss, 15 October 1941

Here is what I have about this action

I) RAF activity from the 1941 Fighter Command file available on Tony Wood website

RAF 11 Group Ramrod 1: Dock-yards LE HAVRE
12.00: RAF 2 Group 12 Blenheim IV
(2 Blenheim IV lost)
Escort Wing: Tangmere
RAF 11 Gp. Woodhouse 1 Spitfire Vb 11.53-13.10 Ramrod 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F No casualty L-BS: Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 W/Cdr. H.C.A. Woodhouse 11 Group Tangmere 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F 12.45 ca: Le Havre

RAF 11 Gp. 129 Sqn. 12 Spitfire Vb 11.53-13.10 Ramrod 1 - 0 - 0 Me109F No casualty L-BS: Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 Pilot 11 Group 129 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F 12.35 ca: Le Havre
Escort-Cover Wing: Ibsley
RAF 10 Gp. 118 Sqn. 12 Spitfire Vb 12.30- Ramrod 2 - 0 - 0 Me 109F No casualty L-BS: Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 Pilot 11 Group 118 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 Pilot 11 Group 118 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F Le Havre
RAF 10 Gp. 234 Sqn. 12 Spitfire Vb 12.30- Ramrod 1 - 1 - 3 Me 109F 1 Cat.3m Fighters L-BS: Le Havre
Cat.3m 15.10.41 Sgt. H.R. Barnett: kia 10 Group 234 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: P8714 Me 109s: Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 S/Ldr. H.M. Stephen 10 Group 234 Sqn. ½ - 0 - 0 Me 109F Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 F/O P.I. Howard-Williams 10 Group 234 Sqn. ½ - 0 - 0 Me 109F Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 Pilot 10 Group 234 Sqn. 0 - 1 - 0 Me 109F Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 Pilot 10 Group 234 Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109F Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 Pilot 10 Group 234 Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109F Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 Pilot 10 Group 234 Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109F Le Havre
RAF 2 Group Light-Bomber:
RAF 2 Gp. 226 Sqn. 6 Blenheim IV 13.46- Ramrod 1 0 - 0 - 0 n/a 2 Cat.3m Lost Tasked: Le Havre
Cat.3m 15.10.41 P/O R.M. Hudson raaf: kia 2 Group 226 Sqn. Blenheim IV: Z7493: Y Me 109s: Le Havre
Cat.3m 15.10.41 Sgt. D. Poulston: kia 2 Group 226 Sqn. Blenheim IV: Z7493: Y Me 109s: Le Havre
Cat.3m 15.10.41 Sgt. G.S. Needler: kia 2 Group 226 Sqn. Blenheim IV: Z7493: Y Me 109s: Le Havre
Cat.3m 15.10.41 Sgt. S.L.T. Paine: kia 2 Group 226 Sqn. Blenheim IV: Z7494: Z Me 109s: Le Havre
Cat.3m 15.10.41 Sgt. G.R. Banks: kia 2 Group 226 Sqn. Blenheim IV: Z7494: Z Me 109s: Le Havre
Cat.3m 15.10.41 Sgt. W.J.S. Wolstenholme: kia 2 Group 226 Sqn. Blenheim IV: Z7494: Z Me 109s: Le Havre
Summary for Ramrod 1 on 15th October 1941 to dock-yards at Le Havre. Fighters taking part 5 squadrons, 61 sorties, 5-1-4 claimed for 1 lost. Bombers taking part 12 Blenheim IV of 2 Group, 2 lost: strikes on 10,000-ton Tanker and 5,000-ton MV. Ref: RAF/FC Summary of Sorties (Air 16/1307)

II) German claims (from Jim P file, also available from Tony's website)

15-10-1941 Ltn.Rüdiger Kirchmayr 4.(Eins)/JFS 5 Spitfire Octeville 16.13 n.b. no Prien/Bock
15-10-1941 Uffz. Joses Jennewein 4.(Eins)/JFS 5 Spitfire Le Havre - 4 yes Prien/Bock
15-10-1941 Uffz. Peter Gerth 4.(Eins)/JFS 5 Spitfire Le Havre - 10 yes Prien/Bock
15-10-1941 Uffz. Peter Gerth 4.(Eins)/JFS 5 Spitfire Le Havre - 11 yes Prien/Bock
15-10-1941 n.n. 4.(Eins)/JFS 5 Spitfire Le Havre - yes Prien/Bock
15-10-1941 n.n. 4.(Eins)/JFS 5 Spitfire Le Havre - yes Prien/Bock
15-10-1941 Uffz. Joses Jennewein 4.(Eins)/JFS 5 Blenheim Le Havre - 5 yes Prien/Bock
15-10-1941 Ltn. Bodo Helms 4.(Eins)/JFS 5 Blenheim Le Havre - 2 yes Prien/Bock

So German claims were correct for Blenheims and overclaims 5 to 1 for Spitfires.
Other claims this day for RAF bombers were against unescorted shipping strikes.

III) German losses (from Avions HS n° 15, about the Luftwaffe fighters losses in France in 1941)

Three losses for 15 October 1941:

All three for 4.(Eins)/JFS 5:
Bf 109 F-2 WNr 1291 destroyed 100% in crash near Le Havre. Pilot Ltn Elmar Resch bailed out and injured
Bf 109 E-7 WNr 7677 destroyed 100%, crashed near Epouville, 11 km NE Le Havre, after air battle and being fired at by own Flak
Bf 109 F-1 WNr 5617 (or 5611 according to another source) destroyed at 65% in landing accident on Fl.Pl Le Havre

So two combat losses, and one that may or not be combat-related but is not in German documents

So, while both sides claimed victory, both overclaimed and it was actually a draw for aircraft losses (3 AC by each side).

I have no idea if the target (ships) was hit or not. No damage or sinking is listed in my sources for this day and area

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Old 1st February 2007, 15:55
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Re: Luftwaffe loss, 15 October 1941

Hi.

All of these losses are reported in the loss records for Schulen und sonstige Verbände, October 18th 1941:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=113517

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=113515

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=113516

I would say that two of these aircraft can be stated to have been combat losses, to ay that the reason for the last aircraft being wrecked by landing was battle damage would be speculation (and these guys wrecked their 109's at a tremendous rate.... in landing and take-off accidents).

So I guess mystery solved, these aircraft were from the operational Staffel of a fighter school, not a frontline unit. I am not implying that the quality of the pilots necessarily was inferior to the ones in a frontline units, some of the teachers in these schools were rather experienced.

Best regards,
Andreas B
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  #7  
Old 1st February 2007, 16:54
robert robert is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe loss, 15 October 1941

Hi,


basing on Prien "JFV Teil 5." I can add that Bf109E-7 W.Nr.7677 flown by Lt.Resch was marked with white "7".

Regards

Robert
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Old 2nd February 2007, 16:31
keith A keith A is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe loss, 15 October 1941

Excellent. Thanks for all the replies. The instructors and students pilots did themselves proud!
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  #9  
Old 2nd February 2007, 16:35
keith A keith A is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe loss, 15 October 1941

...just a query, by I have Sptephen sharing his victory with PO Barry Denville, not Peter Howard-Williams who was in 118, and shared a kill with SL Howell on this date.
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