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  #1  
Old 15th July 2006, 13:04
Kutscha Kutscha is offline
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Knoke's claim, Nov 6 1942

Was this a/c really a Mosquito as he claimed?

As far as I could ascertain no Mosquitos were lost off the northern Dutch coast that day but a Ventura of 21 Sqd was. In fact I can find np Mosquitos lost this Nov day.
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  #2  
Old 15th July 2006, 14:16
Hans Nauta Hans Nauta is offline
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Re: Knoke's claim, Nov 6 1942

Hi Kutscha,

In fact 3 Ventura's, AE848 and AE784 and AJ200 were lost,all being claimed by Flak.
The crash locations are far away from the where Knoke claimed a Mosquito, 50 km NW of Heligoland.

No Mosquito's of Bomber Command were sent out that day, and of not misidentified, it might have been a PRU Mosquito. AFAIK none were lost, perhaps only damaged?

Regards,
Hans Nauta
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Old 15th July 2006, 15:04
Kutscha Kutscha is offline
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Re: Knoke's claim, Nov 6 1942

Hi Hans,

I found this site on the Venturas, http://ns33.hosteur.com/%7Eheinzkno/.../Victory_2.htm

In the article, it speculates that one of the Venturas could have been Knoke's claim.

There is also this site but not sure how accurate it is, http://www.dehavilland.ukf.net/_DH98%20prodn%20list.txt

though it looks very comprehensive. Any idea who did the work?

Not to go OT but how accurate is Knoke's book, I flew for the Fuhrer.
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Old 15th July 2006, 15:59
Hans Nauta Hans Nauta is offline
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Re: Knoke's claim, Nov 6 1942

Hi Kutcha,

I discussed this matter years ago with Franck Ruffino. The main 'problem' is that for all Ventura's a Flak claim exists:

AJ200: 14.31 hrs 2 km Z Spijkenisse
AE848: 14.35 hrs North Sea W Bergen aan Zee
AE784: 14.38 hrs Waddenzee 5 km E of Den Helder

Apart from that, crew members who perished are all buried in The Netherlands, virtually impossible that Knoke's claim could have been one of the Ventura's. So I cannot agree with the assumption of Franck.

Regards,
Hans Nauta
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Old 15th July 2006, 16:52
Kutscha Kutscha is offline
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Re: Knoke's claim, Nov 6 1942

Thanks Hans.

Was Knoke padding his claims? There was such an occurance in North Africa with a staffel of one of the units there.

It would seem he is, as no Mosquito losses are recorded for that date. Or, he shot down a German a/c.
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  #6  
Old 15th July 2006, 19:04
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mikeshilton mikeshilton is offline
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Re: Knoke's claim, Nov 6 1942

Could it have been a USAAF Mosquito?
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Old 15th July 2006, 23:07
Kutscha Kutscha is offline
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Re: Knoke's claim, Nov 6 1942

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeshilton
Could it have been a USAAF Mosquito?
I have an initial batch of 20 Mossies going to the USAAF in Feb 1944. These were PR XVIs
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Old 16th July 2006, 11:35
Hans Nauta Hans Nauta is offline
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Re: Knoke's claim, Nov 6 1942

Hi Kutscha,

I don't want to state that Heinz Knoke deliberately padded his claim. However, after having researched various claims over North-West Holland, including some 'mysterious' claims too, it always turned out that at least SOMETHING happened.

During an air battle, the nerves of pilots were strained and visibility wasn't always perfect. A Blenheim, for instance, diving away with black smoke was very easily claimed as destroyed while the Bristol engines had the characteristics of emitting black smoke when thrusted into 9 lbs boost. A Blenheim crew, diving away for cloud cover, eventually reached base, sometimes with only slight damage, while being claimed as destroyed by the German pilot!
I've filed several events in detail like above.

Back to 6th November 1942. If there isn't a Mosquito loss and not a matching RAF loss at all, what could have happened?
According to the Bomber Command War Diaries Wilhelmshaven was one of the targets that day. A cloud cover raid was carried out by 14 Wellingtons and 5 Lancasters. It could have been possible that Knoke met one of the attackers. Perhaps unbelievable, but he may have misidentified and attacked a Wellington, which eventually managed to return to England.

A check in the Operations Record Books of 1 and 3 RAF Group is necessary to see whether one of the Wellingtons was attacked by a Bf.109 on the location of Knoke's claim.

Kind regards,
Hans Nauta
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Old 16th July 2006, 11:50
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Re: Knoke's claim, Nov 6 1942

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeshilton
Could it have been a USAAF Mosquito?
Roger Freeman's "Might Eighth War Diary" lists only USAAF Spitfires operating that day.
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  #10  
Old 16th July 2006, 14:32
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Knoke's claim, Nov 6 1942

Hi All

Without checking where each individual claim took place on a map, I just want to make some additional comments and present an additional view to what Hans has already written.

1) The weather that day was, if we are to believe Knoke, VERY lousy with very bad visibillity

2) The action took place at a very low altitude

Point 1 leads to the conclusion that
a) German AAA must have had at least a certain difficulty to confirm their claims unless their claimed victim exploded on the spot.
b) Knoke must also have had some difficulty to place his exact whereabouts

Point 2 does not lend credence to the aeroplane being a Mosquito. Neither a bomber or recce version were of much use at low altitude coming back from Berlin. To escape, the Mossie was far better off at high altitude, especially if it was one of the unarmed versions. Neither does it explain why Knoke was at that low altitude. Maybe his diary wasn't all that good and that he was after all sent out to chase attacking Venturas but his memory attached that days action with a totally different day when a Mosquito chase took place.

We have to remember that in all there were 10 Venturas sent out that day to attack two different targets in Holland. Knoke might even have run into one of the others and thought he had shot one down. Bad visibillity is not good for exact recording of combat claims....

Cheers
Stig
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