Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 16th June 2020, 13:13
Peter Cook Peter Cook is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 50
Peter Cook is on a distinguished road
Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?

I am trying to establish when Sgt Eric Bann of 238 Squadron was shot down into the Channel during the Battle of Britain. According to Brian Cull's Battle for the Channel Pg. 233, he was shot down on 21 July, and Cull quotes from a letter from Bann, reproduced in Battle of Britain Then and Now, Pg. 352. The aircraft's serial number is not identified. However, there is no date on the letter and it is located in BoB Then and Now alongside RAF casualty listings for August 12. Patrick Bishop reproduces part of the same letter, in his BoB book, pg. 113, but adds the date of July 19. I can find no record of Batt being shot down in either July or August in the Form 540 and 541 ORB records for 238 Squadron, and his biography in Wynn only describes Bann being shot down once — on September 28, when he was killed. Can anyone shine a light on the correct date and circumstances for when Bann was shot down into the Channel?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 16th June 2020, 14:42
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 8,840
Chris Goss is on a distinguished road
Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?

Peter: This has been discussed many times before:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...highlight=Bann
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 16th June 2020, 16:55
Peter Cook Peter Cook is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 50
Peter Cook is on a distinguished road
Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?

Thanks Chris, I should have searched for it before posting -- however, the date of Bann's downing in the Channel is still unresolved.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 16th June 2020, 23:02
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 8,840
Chris Goss is on a distinguished road
Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?

...and it would appear it will remain so. I have researched the 238 Sqn combats on 21 July 40 and no mention of him being shot down having contacted survivors from both crew Bf 110 and Do 17 crews
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 17th June 2020, 12:54
Peter Cook Peter Cook is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 50
Peter Cook is on a distinguished road
Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?

Thanks Chris, will your Do 17 interviews be used in your new Do 17 Battle of Britain book? I have four of your Do 17 books already and have the new one on order!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 17th June 2020, 13:13
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 8,840
Chris Goss is on a distinguished road
Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?

Not sure-need to finish Luftwaffe aces of 1940 & Do 217 first!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 17th June 2020, 23:09
Martin Gleeson Martin Gleeson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 571
Martin Gleeson is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?

Peter,

The suggestion of an unaccounted for total Hurricane loss greatly piqued my interest, as did his possible service in France during May 1940. Having read the letters referred to and then researched various documents I have come to several conclusions. Without meaning to offend anyone I have to ask was Eric Bann ‘shooting a line’ to his family back home ?
.
Firstly regarding his time in France with the B.E.F. The best information we have (‘MEN OF THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN’ (2015) by Kenneth G. Wynn) is that Sgt. Bann and Sgt. Batt joined 253 Sqn. at Kenley on May 17th, and were posted on to 238 Sqn. at Tangmere on the 21st. From May 16th to 23rd 253 Sqn. was rotating pilots and aircraft to France. The unit was very heavily engaged there on the 18th and 19th , and to a lesser extent on the 21st. This information from the 253 Sqn. ORB.

It seems most unlikely to me that the squadron had the aircraft and pilots to spare training brand new pilots in fighter combat. Sending them to France would have been a liability. Most likely it was decided to get them out of the way. The 253 Sqn. ORB is deficient in many ways for those of us researching the May 1940 campaign, but it does seem to list accurately all those pilots who flew in France and when, whether based there or in England. Therefore, especially due to the short time at 253 Sqn., I do not believe either Bann or Batt went to France in spite of what his letters suggest.

To support this I would also point out the similar case of Sgt. Eric Seabourne, a colleague at 238 Squadron. Wynn states after his training finished he joined 151 Sqn. on May 16th , later to 238 Sqn. on June 12th. In between he did not fly with 151 Sqn. because he had no experience on Hurricanes.

The action on 21 July 1940 with the Luftwaffe aircraft. The 238 Sqn. F.541 specifies 5 aircraft on the patrol from 1420 to 1515 hours. They included S/L Fenton and Sgt. Batt, but no mention of Bann. On the same page Bann is shown participating in another 5-aircraft patrol from1910 to 2015 hours on the same day but with no action. Bann flew on an early morning very short patrol on July 22nd (0830-0840) and later again (1215-1255), but there was no action on either. This is not consistent with a pilot being in the Channel for some time the day before.

I have looked at all the serials listed in the 238 Sqn. F.541 from July 1st to 21st, some 23 in all. All 23 can be accounted for. Between July 3rd and 20th some were damaged and sent for repair, some were lost. The rest were recorded flying on July 22nd or later. I could find no F.1180 accident card, AIR 81 casualty file or AIR 50 combat report matching such a loss. So no unaccounted Hurricane loss based on the above.

The letter that began this search has a line; “The C/O and two of us were out on an early morning patrol….”. In the period July 14th (when S/L Fenton took command) to August 5th Fenton and Bann flew together on patrols about 8 times, but only engaged the enemy twice on July 26th and 27th. The first was a 12-aircraft patrol but the second was just with 3 aircraft (Fenton, Bann and P/O Davis). Some details in the letter match those in the ORB, such as one bomber was claimed, the patrol was to protect a convoy and it was in the morning (0833-1017 hours). Bann flew P2947 on both of these sorties but this aircraft survived until lost on August 8th.

I note too that Sgt. Parkinson baled out of his Hurricane over the Channel on July 20th. He was picked up but sadly died the following day. All of this leads me to believe Bann was conflating a number of events on various dates but ‘spicing’ the story up for his family. I see no evidence that he baled out over or ditched in the Channel.

Hope this helps,

Martin Gleeson.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 18th June 2020, 07:59
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 8,840
Chris Goss is on a distinguished road
Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?

Good analysis Martin
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 18th June 2020, 10:24
paulmcmillan paulmcmillan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 919
paulmcmillan
Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?

Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence - But yes Martin Very Good Analysis

I checked the RNLI List of Services for 1940 = And yes while it possible Life Boat not called out - their is no record for dates for any recovery - and yes iy could have been made ny RAF Motor Launch

Selsey Life boat called out to British Plane on 11th July and Weymouth to a German Plane on same date

on July 14th Weymouth Harbour lifeboat was called out to a British plane and 3 bodies recovered


from August the lifeboat crews were being called out to aeroplane of both nations multiple times
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 18th June 2020, 10:30
paulmcmillan paulmcmillan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 919
paulmcmillan
Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?

July 11th 1940 Airman was in Sea 3/4 hour 3.5 miles off Selsey Bill and was a Sqn Ldr - No name provided but add 'few days later airman awarded DFC' -- I wonder if this allows him to be discovered
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Study] November 23, 1939 : Luftwaffe losses / crash sites over France (I need your help !) DIscotraxxx Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 18 21st October 2013 22:49
610 Sqn 26 Aug 40 Chris Goss Allied and Soviet Air Forces 11 18th August 2013 03:05
My findings on Sgt Bann 238 Squadron Battle of Britain Jon Allied and Soviet Air Forces 10 5th August 2005 23:54
238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940 Jon Allied and Soviet Air Forces 26 24th July 2005 13:10
Sgt Frederick Eley 745667 74 Squadron 1940 Jon Allied and Soviet Air Forces 2 27th January 2005 20:28


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net