Hans Beisswenger 03 Dec 1942

[Nokose]

I was recently asked a question about Hans Beisswenger’s claim on the 03 December 1942. I looked at that date on Tony Woods list and Prien’s JFV 9/III, both had different locations.
Tony Woods list has a Yak-1 at 12:55 to the SW of Nevatina-See (?)

Prien’s JFV 9/III has a Yak-1 (105) 12:35 SW of Weretenj (Vereteni?) and a LaGG-3 (106) 13:06 6 km SE of Flpl Brjansk-m (Bryansk?)

Prien has one more claim then Tony Woods list. Next the times are off. Then Prien’s locations are very strange on looking at them in reference to the location of the frontline. So I am looking maybe for a clarification on who is right and where the actual locations could be here.

Lt. Maximilian Stotz 4/JG 54 also scored that day.
Prien’s JFV 9/III lists a Yak-1 (101) 12:30 PlQu 2814. Also Fw. Xaver Müller 5/JG 54 La-5 (12) 13:10 PlQu 2811 (the latter not in Tony’s list).

[Stig Jarlevik]

Checking Johannes M's lists he says re Beisswenger
Claim 105: 12.55H Yak-1 SW Lake Nevatina
Claim 106: 13.09H LaGG-3 (no place)

Re Stotz
Claim 101: 12.30H Yak-1 (no place)

Re Müller
Claim 12: 13.10H La-5 (no place)

It seems the interpreted places are hard to read from the microfilms and Johannes simply opted out

Cheers
Stig

[@irnimal]

Hi Gentlemen,

Well, on 3 December there were more losses than claims made. Rare feat indeed.
So according to the Loss Records we have :
(Unfortunately Loss Records don't provide times for the losses, and location aren't given everytime)
- [21 GIAP] (LaGG-3) Str.Lt. Leonid Nikolaevich Puchkov, KIA in aerial combat against fighters in the Kresttsy area
- [436 IAP] (P-40) Mld.Lt. Viktor Rodionovich Bondarenko, hit by fighters, bailed out but (apparently) parachute did not deploy, in the Grivko (??) Area
- [436 IAP] (P-40) Serz. Ivan Ivanovich Pokhilenko, Mia in the Strelitsy area.
- Christer Bergstrom, on his BA+RS Voi.3, states that 42 IAP (Yak-7b) lost one aircraft, but the pilot must have survived because there is no mention on Loss Records
- According to a Russian site
https://m.vk.com/wall-202923572_2052
[161 IAP] (Yak-1) Lt. Ivan Ivanovich Markin [att 10+5 (10+6 Vit)], was hit during combat, but somehow returned to unit.
According to same site, Markin was Beisswenger's victim and both 436 IAP's aircraft were lost against Stotz. As for Mueller's victim, probably the 21 GIAP machine.

[Nokose]

Stig, thank you fir your response, maybe Kirche can provide the location of Lake Nevetina. I suspect it is around Staraya Russa - Demyansk as the locations from Prien’s book just doesn’t look right.

Jrnimal,
I have seen to many times that the pilots of JG 54 identified a La-5 as a Curtiss P-40 and the P-40 as a La-5, it was probably the engine size that threw them or they didn’t care. I have the times for that date but the Russian location is partially faded. The Soviet use of “Did not come back from combat mission” , doesn’t mean that they were really lost. I have seen it in the OBD Memorial were they had to add and amendment that he had returned wounded or just got delayed for where they landed.

[Karoband]

Hi Nokose,

I hope that these help. They are tweaked screenshots from RL 5/1458 p.0063 and p.0064:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1265

forum.12oclockhigh.net/album.php?albumid=73&pictureid=1266

best regards,

Jim

[Stig Jarlevik]

Jim

Thanks for posting these screenshots.
Can't say they are of any help to me, but perhaps someone else can read those hieroglyphics (in Sweden we
say crow's feet)

Odd that Johannes has left out the PlQu details since they are, surprisingly enough, quite readable....

Cheers
Stig

[Johannes]

Hi Jim

Regarding my lake of crash-sites. Stig is correct I opted out. Sometimes you get a grid reference, it's easy to work out numbers.......there are only ten options. With name places, unless I'm sure of a place I'll leave it out, and these were places rather than grid references.

But I can tell you the first(1255) was SW of somewhere, and the other SE.

As we have established Beißwenger was a honest claimer, whereas Stotz was not whilst influenced/flying with Hans Hahn. On this occasion it would appear that Stotz was not with Hahn, and not surprisingly his resent almost unbelievable score rate was reduced to one claim, which I guess we can assume was a honest one witnesses by a honest comrade.

Leistungsbücher usually have much more accurate crash-site details than the microfilms. I do know that Beißwenger's flugbuch was on the market a few years ago, just maybe his leistungsbuch was with it.

Prien doesn't work the microfilms himself, but the man he uses is extremely accurate.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Nikita Egorov]

Puchkov of 21 GIAP was shot down on December 4.

For December 3:

28 GIAP, Aircobra, St.Lt. Rybalchenko, damaged by surprise attack of Me-109, between 14.06-15.33 in the area of Strelitzy-Bor. Emergency landing on Krestzy airfield.

436 IAP, P-40, St. Pokhilenko failed to return fro air combat in Strelitzy area, 13.35-15.01. Posted missing in action

436 IAP, P-40, Ml.Lt. Bondarenko was shot down and killed in Vasil'evtschina area, 14.40-16.05

42 IAP, Yak-7, Kap. Markin damaged in the air combat in Bolshoye Stepanovo area, 14.00-15.00 and made energency landing near Maloye Yablonovo.

[Nokose]

Hello Nikita, there was one more for the 3 December 1942. Yak-7B 42 IAP Serzhant Aleksey Kulikov made an emergency landing after an air battle. The condition of his aircraft, I don’t know but have been seeing a lot of emergency landings with wrecked aircraft reporting.