Hartmann: claims vs. victories

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by robert

Answer is simple: because the Soviets did not report everything. Polish Campaign 1939 is a good example: some Soviet planes were downed by Polish fighters. Some of the Soviet aircrews were captured and interrogated but there is no trace in Soviet documents.

This is the kind of discussion I was looking for, robert.

As you know, in recent decades, the Russian files have been opened, and a lot more information has become available. Is your knowledge of the above as a result of consulting those files, or having someone who has access to them.

As we know, robert, reports up the line were for two reasons: 1) to notify losses of/damage to aircraft so that the Quartermaster could provide replacements, and 2) to notify losses/wounding of aircrew so that replacement crew could be allocated.
To not report either of the above could result ultimately in depleted units in both aircraft and men. So this is an interesting point you make with regard to the Polish Campaign.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Originally Posted by robert

And because you are sharper you are writing my name using small "r". Oh yes this is very smart of you...You are doing it so neatly. I met many people, which don`t want to have any contact with you anymore...now this group is bigger.

Robert,

Could you kindly explain us why you chose to name yourself “robert” in this forum ? Just so you don’t get unnecessarily offended by John quoting your forum name in the precise way I see it on my screen as well. John’s meticulous precision is a foremost reason as to why his published works are so appreciated.

Sincerely
Marc

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by robert

And because you are sharper you are writing my name using small "r". Oh yes this is very smart of you...You are doing it so neatly. I met many people, which don`t want to have any contact with you anymore...now this group is bigger.

Your name on this forum has a small 'r'. Take a look if you don't believe me...

[HGabor]

There is no reason for name calling on this forum. Certain norms should be maintained, we are all here to learn and have fun without belittling each other. Comparing Soviet records from 1939 (then a local conflict) and from 1945 (full swing WWII after several major changes and reorganizations of the Soviet war machine) is a basic mistake. Early records could be lost or destroyed, let alone put on certain websites as of yet and so on. A lot can be said about the Soviet Red Army but that 'they did not report their losses' cannot. Their personnel and material losses were reported in different channels (unlike the American MAC Reports, where both were reported in a common folder), not to mention that their records were overlapping in a network of multiple documents. Regiment, Division, Corps, Army level, etc… These documents these days can be found at TsAMO RF with a portion published online (mostly unit diaries). Aircraft losses and mechanical records are also kept there but most of them are not published online.
But let us get back to Hartmann…June 4, 1944 is interesting to say the least.

Gabor

[Chris Goss]

There are only two moderators on 12 OCH and it is not a full time (paid) job. They have been made aware and will no doubt act as they see fit when time permits

[Nick Beale]

I've been driven to delete a whole sequence of antagonistic posts from this thread. This should not have become necessary.

As if anyone should need reminding, TOCH is not an arena for conducting personal disputes.

If anyone wants a fight, take it outside — it's not as if there aren't other channels available.

If you are offended by a post, don't respond to it and complain to the moderators afterwards, that only adds fuel to the fire. However much you believe you're in the right, just tell the moderators and let us deal with it.

OK, back to Erich Hartmann's claims and victories …

[John Beaman]

Amen, Nick

[Nokose]

From research by Nikita Ergorov for Hartman on the 20 Sep 43. La-5 of 31 IAP flown by St. Lt. Pavel Korneevich Leonenko during 13:54 - 15:12 (Moscow) was shot down 4 km E. of Derezovatka from the side of the sun. He was listed as KIA.

Lt. Erich Hartmann 9./JG 52 LaGG (99) 13:40 59474 at 2000 m.

[BenFolk]

Hello

On June 8, 1944, the Germans reported the shooting down of 7 Aircobras;

Ltn. Werner Fass 6./SG 2 13.50
Fw. Erich Müller Stab./SG 2 13.50
Fw. Dieter Voight Stab./SG 2 13.55
Obstlt. Dietrich Hrabak Stab./JG 52 19.20
Ltn. Heinz Sachsenberger 6./JG 52 13.13
Ltn. Heinz Sachsenberger 6./JG 52 13.14
Ltn.Heinz Ewald 6./JG 52 17.38

The 5 VA, however, only reported one loss in aerial combat and one Aircobra did not return from the enemy flight. 20 P-39s took part in the aerial battles. 4 of the 104 GvIAP had to fight against Fw190s.
Takeoff at at 1.54 p.m.; Landing at 2:37 p.m. (Information for all 4 aircraft). After that report the loss of Stepanov and Rygamancov's plane was slightly damaged.
The aircraft from mechanic Guard Senior Sergeant Elagin from 104 GvIAP being serviced made an emergency landing in the mountainous terrain in the area of Jassy. Elagin evacuated the aircraft from the front line and restored it, then gave the pilot a chance to take it to his airfield. So not even three returned to the airfield, only two P-39s. The Soviets do not write anything about this in their chronicles, although the forced landing may have looked like a crash.
So I think we will argue for a long time about the aerial victories of the Germans or other nations, as long as not all the documents can really be checked. The ones you see now are not flawless.
Still another example;
During the Yaass operation, mechanic Isagulov's 104 GvIAP aircraft, shot down in aerial combat, made two emergency landings on the front line. Isagulov evacuated the plane to his airfield and put it into operation on time.

Greeting
BenFolk

[bavgan]

Here is an article about Hartmann published in a peer-reviewed journal. https://uir.unisa.ac.za/handle/10500/26467

Sad to see that the name of the journal has "science" in it. The authors straightly defined the Bf 109 as superior to all other WW2 aircraft which is an indication that they had no idea about the evolution of technologies during the war. After the introduction, I decided not to read it the rest of the article, except the conclusion section, where the authors concluded to nothing new. Unfortunately, while revealing nothing new, they received their academic points in their institutions for publishing an article in a journal.