Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?

[Edward L. Hsiao]

Gentlemen,does the Luftwaffe use captured P-47s and P-51s in German markings ever against the USAAF ever? I know this topic was probably discussed a few years earlier but I need to refresh my memory. The Luftwaffe claimed they didn't captured RAF and USAAF planes in combat against the Allies. The USAAF pilots and crewmen reported the Luftwaffe had actually did flew these captured Allied planes a lot. Are there any aviation websites that explained something like that?

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

[Nick Beale]

There was talk from a prisoner from 1.(F)/121 that a P-47 was to be used by another pilot he knew for reconnaissance over Southern England in Spring 1944, but no evidence that it was ever used. It was a "Thunderbolt. Besides, they are also fitted with cameras; it was an English reconnaissance aircraft which had been shot down, that’s to say it wasn’t shot down, but was forced to land on account of some damage". I don't know of any English Tunderbolt fitted with cameras though, so mistaken i/d I think.

[Alfred.MONZAT]

No, they wouldn't waste captured aircraft like that. We can assume these reported encounters were friendly fire incidents or misidentification. Same apply to B-17 or B-24 used as shadower, they were mostly used for parachuting agents over Allied held territories by night.

[Chris Goss]

The Allies did not do it-massive risk of being shot down by your own side to, from and during the flight and what would happen if you were shot down and captured flying such an aircraft? I agree with Alfred

[ghostwriter]

gentlemen,

only pictures of prey planes are shown, which carry a beam cross or where it can be proved that they carried one:

http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/beute/usa/ (german)

for example:

"P-51B Mustang, code T9+HK"
"P-51C Mustang, code T9+CK"
"P-47D Thunderbolt 'Beetle', code YF+U"

But also some North American P-51 and P-47 fighters fell almost undamaged into German hands. All these prey aircraft were subjected to intensive testing in Rechlin.

the question remains, were they ever used in combat operations?
hmh, ... maybe "Zirkus Rosarius"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zirkus_Rosarius


best regards
marc

[Legion]

Hello All,

There are excellent books on the subject one is called "On Special Missions" (The luftwaffe's Research and Experimental Squadrons 1923-1945) by J. Richard Smith, Eddie J. Creek & Peter Petrick.

The other is "Strangers in a strange land," by Hans Heiri Stapfer.

It appears that they didn't use any captured enemy aircraft in actual combat...

The book says...
"With new allied fighters appearing on all fronts, the luftwaffe was finding itself hard pressed to fulfil its reconnaissance missions because its aircraft were losing their previous performance advantages.

It was then realised that if the speed & manoeuvrability of luftwaffe reconnaissance aircraft could be measured in mock combat against the best enemy opposition, the knowledge thus gained would do much to improve the survival rate of the German crews."

When enemy fighters that were captured had finished being tested & evaluated at the luftwaffe testing station at Rechlin, they were given to the experimental squadron for enemy aircraft (Versuchsstaffel fur Feindflugzeug) under the command of Hauptman Rosarius. They were tested against the latest german reconnaissance aircraft at extreme altitudes. later on, they were used to instruct the german fighter pilots on how to deal with enemy fighters in mock combats.

Spitfire PR XI (MB945) German coded T9+EK.
P47D-2RA Thunderbolt (42-22490) German coded 7+9 then T9+FK later
P47D-16-RE Thunderbolt (42-75971) German coded T9+LK
*P47D-5-RE Thunderbolt (42-8476) German code unknown.
P38 F-5E lightning (44-23725) German coded T9+MK
P51B Mustang (43-24825) German coded T9+HK
P51B Mustang German coded T9+CK
Hawker Typhoon Ia (EJ956) German coded T9+GK
De Havilland Mosquito IVB (Sno unknown) German coded T9+XB - non airworthy

*= from Strangers in a strange land.

Rosarius said after the war that the maximum number of aircraft available to the "zirkus" at any one time was estimated at 22. He remembers that these included 4x mustangs, 3x thunderbolts, 3x spitfires (a IX, XI & XII) 2x typhoons 2x tempests
2x lightnings, 2x mosquitos a harvard & 2x soviet fighters=( a yak9 & a yak3)

The above info was taken from the two books listed above.

Hope it helps

Regards
Tony.

[edwest2]

A photo was posted here showing a P-51 in German markings. I do not recall it having the T9 code.

Best,
Ed

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by edwest2

A photo was posted here showing a P-51 in German markings. I do not recall it having the T9 code.

Best,
Ed

Hi Ed,

There is a photo in Stapfer's "Strangers in a Strange Land" (page 57) showing, albeit indistinctly, the white T9 code letters (over olive drab fuselage sides) on P-47 T9+FK.

On page 58 is a P-51 which can be seen to be T9+HK but with the T9 in black this time. on a natural metal fuselage.

[Graham Boak]

It isn't exactly true that no German aircraft were used by the Allies. The British used an ex-Norwegian He.115 on clandestine missions from the UK and Malta, and ex-Greek Do.22s for anti-submarine missions in the Eastern Mediterranean. But combat missions, local ASW excepted, no.

[edwest2]

The photo I refer to showed a P-51 on the ground with debris nearby.