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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#1
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Luftwaffe losses, Kiev, 6.11.1943, asking for help.
Hallo gentlmen!
I am very interested to find out actual losses around Kiev on 6 november 1943. As far as I know, there were following units: II./JG54 (list of G.Rosipal have no losses for JG54 on this date) I./JG51 - I have no losses II./JG52 (I have 1 loss SSW Kiev of 6 Staffel, and 1 loss in unknown area of II./JG52) II./SG2 I/SG77 SG10 This subject is linked with Rudorffer's claims on that day, but I made a different topic.
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Went to war. |
#2
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Re: Luftwaffe losses, Kiev, 6.11.1943, asking for help.
Hi.
In addition to the two losses for JG 52, I have the following: For I./Schl.G.77: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=104862 http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=104861 What part of SG 10 did you think was in the area, as it seem they were taking losses in Belgium, possibly stationed at Venlo around this time? I guess Marcel Hogenhuis would know details about this. Regards, Andreas B
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Ahhh... but I have seen the holy grail! And it is painted RLM 76 all over with a large Mickey Mouse on the side, there is a familiar pilot in front of it and it has an Erla Haube! |
#3
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Re: Luftwaffe losses, Kiev, 6.11.1943, asking for help.
Maybe 14./SG9? They had one loss that day, but I don't know where and where they were based.
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#4
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Re: Luftwaffe losses, Kiev, 6.11.1943, asking for help.
Thanks Andreas!
This loss fits perfectly, 01 582. Also, I've found this loss: Quote:
About SG10: Quote:
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Went to war. |
#5
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Re: Luftwaffe losses, Kiev, 6.11.1943, asking for help.
Hello, Jörg.
The 14./S.G.9 loss was attributed to Flak, and the pilot was unhurt. So - no NVM - loss reported in the loss list of February 29th 1944 - so until we find the missing records or other secondary sources we will not know any details. Regards, Andreas B
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Ahhh... but I have seen the holy grail! And it is painted RLM 76 all over with a large Mickey Mouse on the side, there is a familiar pilot in front of it and it has an Erla Haube! |
#6
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Re: Luftwaffe losses, Kiev, 6.11.1943, asking for help.
I have for Luftflotte 4 the following, some of which are in Kiev area:
1943-11-06, 7.(H)/32 (NAGr. 6), FW 189A-2, 265, M4+CR, 20 km südsüdwestlich Kiew, Bordwaffenbeschuß. Bruch 40 %. Bs Ogfr Bock, Hayo-Albert, verletzt 1943-11-06, II/JG 52, Bf 109G-6, 410121, Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %. 1943-11-06, 6./JG 52, Bf 109G-6, 410082, Wassilkow, Jägerbeschuß. Bruch 25 %. 1943-11-06, 12./JG 54, FW 190A-5, 410213, Pl.Qu. 9244, Notlandung infolge Brennstoffmangel. Bruch 45 %. 1943-11-06, 3./KG 3, Ju 88A-4, 300137, 5K+KL, Kalinowka, Absturz und Aufschlagbrand. Bruch 100 %. F Lt Weyrauch, Günter, tot B Uffz Gratschka, Erwin, tot Bf Uffz Piesold, Helmuth, tot Bs Uffz Bärmann, Horst, tot 1943-11-06, II/KG 53, He 111H-16, Saborje, Jägerbeschuß. Bruch ? %. Bs Stfw Schröder, Reinhold, verletzt 1943-11-06, 2./NSGr. 4, Ar 66, 1011, 1K+OK, Fl.Pl. Usin, Bei Landung Ju 87D-3, Werk-Nr. 130806, gerammt. Bruch 100 %. 1. Wart Ogfr Prochnow, Hans, verletzt 1943-11-06, 9./Schl.G 1, Ju 87D-3, 110488, Pl.Qu. 48725, Jägerbeschuß. Bruch 20 %. 1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, DFS 230, 120106, Wassilkow, Von eigener Truppe gesprengt. Bruch 100 %. 1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, DFS 230, 122137, Wassilkow, Von eigener Truppe gesprengt. Bruch 100 %. 1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, DFS 230, 122162, Wassilkow, Von eigener Truppe gesprengt. Bruch 100 %. 1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, DFS 230, 221318, Wassilkow, Von eigener Truppe gesprengt. Bruch 100 %. 1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, DFS 230, 227346, Wassilkow, Von eigener Truppe gesprengt. Bruch 100 %. 1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, DFS 230, 227352, Wassilkow, Von eigener Truppe gesprengt. Bruch 100 %. 1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, DFS 230, 227498, Wassilkow, Von eigener Truppe gesprengt. Bruch 100 %. 1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, Ju 87D-3, 110016, Pl.Qu. 0177, Notlandung infolge Flakbeschuß, anschliesend gesprengt. Bruch 100 %. 1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, Ju 87D-5, 130903, Pl.Qu. 0177, Notlandung infolge Flakbeschuß, anschliesend gesprengt. Bruch 100 %. 1943-11-06, 4./Schl.G 77, Ju 87D-3, 110846, Fl.Pl. Wassilkow, Flugzeug bei Flugplatzräumung in Feindeshand gefallen. Bruch 100 %. 1943-11-06, 6./Schl.G 77, Ju 87D-5, 130942, S2+FP, 3 km nördlich Biala-Zerkow. Bordwaffenbeschuß. Bruch 100 %. F Ofw Günther, Paul, verletzt 1943-11-06, 6./Schl.G 77, Ju 87D-5, 130948, Pl.Qu. 172. Notlandung infolge Bordwaffenbeschuß. Bruch 100 %. 1943-11-06, 9./Schl.G 77, Ju 87D-3, 110872, S2+KT, 3 km nördlich Maljutjanka. Notlandung infolge Flakbeschuß. Bruch 100 %. F Lt Saul, Werner, vermißt Bf Uffz Richter, Dieter, vermißt 1943-11-06, 9./Schl.G 77, Ju 87D-5, 130806, Fl.Pl. Usin. Durch landender Ar 66, Werk-Nr. 1011, gerammt. Bruch 25 %. B.P. ?, verletzt 1943-11-06, San.Fl.Ber. 11, Ju 52/3m, 7660, GG+FH, Seegebiet 8164 (Schwarzes Meer), Notlandung auf See. Bruch 100 %. F Uffz Hildebrand, Karl-Heinz, vermißt Bf Uffz Pollak, Werner, vermißt Bm Uffz Respondeck, Fritz, vermißt Bs Ofw Gehrlicher, Ludwig, vermißt 17 Fluggäste, vermißt Matti Last edited by Matti Salonen; 6th September 2011 at 15:04. Reason: Crew member added to He 111 |
#7
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Re: Luftwaffe losses, Kiev, 6.11.1943, asking for help.
Hi, all
Matti - I have the following for your 7.(H)/32 (NAGr. 6) loss: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=112548 Just checked the original and it is def N.A.Gr. 9 in it. For: 1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, DFS 230, 120106, Wassilkow, Von eigener Truppe gesprengt. Bruch 100 %. I have WNr 100106, not 120106, and the original record says 100106 1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, DFS 230, 122137, Wassilkow, Von eigener Truppe gesprengt. Bruch 100 %. I have WNr 222137, not 122137, and the original record says 222137. And finally for the follwoing: 1943-11-06, San.Fl.Ber. 11, Ju 52/3m, 7660, GG+FH, Seegebiet 8164 (Schwarzes Meer), Notlandung auf See. Bruch 100 %. I have the loss date as 05.11.1943 as per GenQu. Have you used other sources to add to the GenQu listings for these? Regards, Andreas B
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Ahhh... but I have seen the holy grail! And it is painted RLM 76 all over with a large Mickey Mouse on the side, there is a familiar pilot in front of it and it has an Erla Haube! Last edited by Andreas Brekken; 5th September 2011 at 13:19. Reason: Added attachment |
#8
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Re: Luftwaffe losses, Kiev, 6.11.1943, asking for help.
Hi, again.
Well, I have lookrd into the losses of the units again. SG 10 (or Schl.G.10 as they are listed as in GenQu lists for this period) have registered losses only in the west until late November 1943. You are researching losses in the great renaming and reequipping period of most Schlachtgeschwader: Per order the renaming was to happen on October 18th 1943, and for Schl.G.10 which was a new unit, the changes were as follows Stab/S.K.G.10 -> Stab/Schl.G.10 I./Schl.G.2 -> I./Schl.G.10 IV./S.K.G.10 -> II./Schl.G.10 II./St.G.77 -> III./Schl.G.10 I believe that there might be some losses coupled to the wrong unit during this transition, but that is for further research. Regards, Andreas B
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Ahhh... but I have seen the holy grail! And it is painted RLM 76 all over with a large Mickey Mouse on the side, there is a familiar pilot in front of it and it has an Erla Haube! |
#9
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Re: Luftwaffe losses, Kiev, 6.11.1943, asking for help.
Matti - thank You very very much!
A bit later, when I'll cross check all claims and losses, I'll post here a result. Also, I have a picture about Rudorffer claims in that area, now it is much more clear... Andreas: Yes, thank You. Quote:
Quote:
So, in action were: I./SG77 (former I./StG77) (did this unit ever based at Lemberg on late 1943?) III./SG10 (former II./StG77) Perfect!
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Went to war. Last edited by Evgeny Velichko; 5th September 2011 at 14:26. |
#10
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Re: Luftwaffe losses, Kiev, 6.11.1943, asking for help.
Hi Andreas and others,
From NVM I have made a note, that N.A.Gr. 6 reported Fw 189 loss, but gave unit designation 7.(H)/32. Might be my typo or GQM error. You are absolutely right with those DFS 230 Werk-Nummers. I have evidently too narrow computer display and therefore forgot to check far right the colum "Remarks" in my database. I have there a note of GQM reported WNr.s, which you gave, but based on statistical WNr-blocks have made a "correction". Of course it would be safer to use original, maybe with question mark. For Ju 52/3m I have not found a NVM, but for Uffz Respondeck in one WASt document there was a date 1943-11-06. Matti |
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