The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...

[edwest2]

John,

A job well done. Perhaps someone can locate an early road map or a map created by those tasked with situating high tension lines in the area/region. And a topographical map.

Best,
Ed

[Peter]

Link to older German maps

http://maps.mapywig.org/m/German_map...0K_XI.1941.jpg

http://maps.mapywig.org/m/German_maps/series/

Hope someone can make something out of them

Peter

[Pete63]

Okay, we'll continue searching the area between Dinant / Marche-en-Famenne enroute to the current Belgian/German border assuming the aircraft was supposed to return to Gelsenkirchen-Buer...
It's a needle in the haystack, but we'll give it a chance...
With kind regards,
Piet

[rof120]

I hope I'm not making myself ridiculous but please have a better look at the Flugbuch. The mention "zwishen Bäumen!" (between some trees!) is written on the line for 27 April NOT 13 May. And yes this was written by some different man not the usual one. The mention "zwischen Bäumen" was written directly over the other mention from 13 May simply because it was the last flight which was registered before 13 May. Please note, too, that this flight on 27 APRIL lasted for only 25 minutes. Other flights were much longer, sometimes several hours. So something happened on 27 April. I don't know if precisely 2N + HN flew for only 25 minutes before performing a belly-landing on 27 APRIL (with both engines stopped, as the intact propeller blades show - I mean they were not bent) but the "Flugbuch-one" obviously did not land on an airfield but between some trees..

Something else: PHOTOGRAPHS OF THIS SCENE. Clearly many photographs of this AC were shot because numerous German soldiers were there - with many trucks, bicycles, possibly on foot too. It is obvious, too, that about 1/2 dozen pictures or more were shot by one and the same PK-Photographer (technically excellent pictures and they all look similar). I have got another of these many shots here right on my desk after I heroically screened several hundred photographs of all kinds (babies, cats, family, vacation etc.) looking precisely for that one. Not surprisingly it's from ECPA at Ivry next to Paris, today ECPA-D. Here is the picture number: DAA 313 L 07. As you know many photographs of German origin are there.

John, you could try to ask the people at ECPAD whether the document (note) accompanying the film roll gives any details. Possibly you would find everything there: exact place, date (for the photograph, possibly not for the incident) and name of photographer. Good luck!

PS: the entry for the mission on 27 April has N° 48, the next entry is N° 49 on 13 May. On 27 April the mission was "Überführung Gütersloh" (ferry flight to Gütersloh - a city near the landing airfield). Take-off time was 9.30 (German time), landing at Buer at 9.55. I feel Buer is a typical GERMAN NAME. I don't know if there was an airfield there but I don't think so. If this Buer is in Germany you won't find it in Belgium, France or the NL. No enemy action is mentioned - and on 27 April the war was on but not the big German offensive yet (10 May).

Several combat missions are mentioned on the same (right) page, one with heavy AAA-fire, another with a Spitfire shot down on 27 May "over the Channel"). "Grosseinsatz" on 3 June - this was the massive German attack in the Paris area. "abgebrochen" (interrupted) by this crew "because of trouble with right engine".

[Nick Beale]

I feel Buer is a typical GERMAN NAME. I don't know if there was an airfield there but I don't think so.

Gelsenkirchen-Buer was an airfield about 30 km WNW of Dortmund but I only know it from references in 1944.

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by rof120

I hope I'm not making myself ridiculous but please have a better look at the Flugbuch. The mention "zwishen Bäumen!" (between some trees!) is written on the line for 27 April NOT 13 May. And yes this was written by some different man not the usual one. The mention "zwischen Bäumen" was written directly over the other mention from 13 May simply because it was the last flight which was registered before 13 May. Please note, too, that this flight on 27 APRIL lasted for only 25 minutes. Other flights were much longer, sometimes several hours. So something happened on 27 April. I don't know if precisely 2N + HN flew for only 25 minutes before performing a belly-landing on 27 APRIL (with both engines stopped, as the intact propeller blades show - I mean they were not bent) but the "Flugbuch-one" obviously did not land on an airfield but between some trees..

Something else: PHOTOGRAPHS OF THIS SCENE. Clearly many photographs of this AC were shot because numerous German soldiers were there - with many trucks, bicycles, possibly on foot too. It is obvious, too, that about 1/2 dozen pictures or more were shot by one and the same PK-Photographer (technically excellent pictures and they all look similar). I have got another of these many shots here right on my desk after I heroically screened several hundred photographs of all kinds (babies, cats, family, vacation etc.) looking precisely for that one. Not surprisingly it's from ECPA at Ivry next to Paris, today ECPA-D. Here is the picture number: DAA 313 L 07. As you know many photographs of German origin are there.

John, you could try to ask the people at ECPAD whether the document (note) accompanying the film roll gives any details. Possibly you would find everything there: exact place, date (for the photograph, possibly not for the incident) and name of photographer. Good luck!

PS: the entry for the mission on 27 April has N° 48, the next entry is N° 49 on 13 May. On 27 April the mission was "Überführung Gütersloh" (ferry flight to Gütersloh - a city near the landing airfield). Take-off time was 9.30 (German time), landing at Buer at 9.55. I feel Buer is a typical GERMAN NAME. I don't know if there was an airfield there but I don't think so. If this Buer is in Germany you won't find it in Belgium, France or the NL. No enemy action is mentioned - and on 27 April the war was on but not the big German offensive yet (10 May).

Several combat missions are mentioned on the same (right) page, one with heavy AAA-fire, another with a Spitfire shot down on 27 May "over the Channel"). "Grosseinsatz" on 3 June - this was the massive German attack in the Paris area. "abgebrochen" (interrupted) by this crew "because of trouble with right engine".

I don't need to have a 'better look at the Flugbuch'!

Flight number 48 was an ordinary flight.

Flight number 49 was a 'Feindflug' ending in a 'Notlandung'.

No change from me as to which flight the 'zwischen baumen' refers to...

[strahljaeger]

Buer (or Gelsenkirchen-Buer) was an German airfield. Parts of II./ZG 1 was in 1940 stationed there. Parts of I./ZG 1 at airfield Kirchhellen, only some Miles west of Buer.

Regards
Matthias

[Pieter H]

Hi John, all,


this case shows again how complex or improbable certain losses can be. I think most of the facts around this loss have now been established, based on the Flugbuch and the pictures. Still a few thoughts looking at this case.

Based on the FB it is clear that the crew Schindler/Heinze participated in the massive (full Gruppe, around 40 a/c) attack on a number of targets in the province of Zeeland in the Netherlands. Amongst others the airfields of Haamstede and Souburg were attacked, as well as the harbour of Vlissingen. In the latter attack the a/c of Hptm Küppers was shot down in Vlissingen.

Why the a/c of Schindler then went south over Belgium will always remain a mystery I suppose. It can have been they got a "Freie Jagd" clearance and simply went south. It can have been they wanted to avoid the French fighters that patrolled quite actively over Breda and Roosendaal. Or they simply got lost (which I doubt, if there's one thing easy over the Netherlands its navigating, since you simply follow the big rivers). I tend to the first option(s).

Then the location. Based on all photo captions it must indeed be the La Roche en Ardenne - Marche en Famenne area. One thing comes to my mind looking at the pictures. It gives the impression the a/c made a proper wheels down landing on a field, and only in the end ended up against the trees, with engines (almost stopped). so possibly a brake failure. Which suggests it even landed intentionally on what was used as an airfield.

Now the interesting thing is that just outside Marche, on the road to La Roche, the Luftwaffe established an advanced air field, at Hargimont. This was mainly used by Bf109 units from May 12. But I can imagine the 2N+HN, when in trouble and looking for a landing place, followed a Bf109 to land here. Only the "St Jean" location in the FB then remains unexplained, since there is no St Jean in this vicinity I think.

This argument is supported by the fact that they apparently returned to their unit within a day, since they flew again from Buer on the 15th. This is quite doable using an air shuttle from an airfield, by road it would have been a stretch given the massive troop movements towards Dinant.

Not all hard proof, but at least plausible explanations how they came from Zeeland to La Roche and then within a day back to Buer.

I've therefore made my Peter Cornwell style entry for this loss as:
May 13: 5./ZG1 Messerschmitt Bf110C-1 (2837). Possibly hit by AA-fire over Belgium on return flight from ground attack in Zeeland and emergency landed with both engines stopped along a road near La Roche en Ardenne, Belgium, ending against trees lining the road, 06.35 a.m. FF Uffz Schindler and BF Ogefr Heinze unhurt, taken up by German troops. Aircraft 2N+HN damaged but repairable.
It is possible that the landing was on one of the temporary air fields established in this area close behind the advancing ground troops, e.g. Hargimont. Both Schindler and Heinze returned to their unit within a day and flew again on May 15.

Cheers, Pieter

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by Pieter H

Hi John, all,

Now the interesting thing is that just outside Marche, on the road to La Roche, the Luftwaffe established an advanced air field, at Hargimont. This was mainly used by Bf109 units from May 12. But I can imagine the 2N+HN, when in trouble and looking for a landing place, followed a Bf109 to land here. Only the "St Jean" location in the FB then remains unexplained, since there is no St Jean in this vicinity I think.

Cheers, Pieter

Pieter,

If you look at the map I posted in post #29 on page 3, you'll see to the east of La Roche-en-Ardenne is the 'Bois de Saint-Jean'. Given the lack of familiarity of Heinze to the area, it is perfectly feasible that he noted the location as being that huge expanse of woods. So I don't think the reference to ' St Jean' is unexplained.

Hope this helps.


John V.