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  #31  
Old 11th July 2018, 11:33
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov View Post
Hello Martin,



Haven't the whole picture but both sides on the East had used the manned observation balloons up to Nov.1944 at least.

Best regards,
Andrey
Very interesting
I was not aware of any manned balloons being used during WW 2 at all.

Can someone (Andrey?) expand a bit on this topic? Since balloons are more suitable whenever a front line is stable, were possibly these "balloon companies" mobile in themselves? Also balloons are usually very clumsy and time consuming to function, requiring special equipment and a large man power as well. To survive I would also say they needed a heavy defense structure as well. All in all a rather huge "investment" for comparable little gain.

So, exactly where and when were they used?

Cheers
Stig
PS: I agree with the theories that barrage balloons were not counted as victories. Manned ones? Why not?
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  #32  
Old 11th July 2018, 11:35
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Snautzer Snautzer is online now
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Quite common on more stable parts of front i think observation and arti spotting. Were mobile. There are wochenschau movie clips of the working of these.



https://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_odkw=Ballon&_osacat=157544&_from=R40&_trks id=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.XBeobachtun gsballon.TRS0&_nkw=Beobachtungsballon&_sacat=15754 4
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  #33  
Old 11th July 2018, 12:47
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Hello Stig,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik View Post

So, exactly where and when were they used?
As I wrote in previous post, I haven't a whole picture, the pieces only.

Germans had used the observation balloons certainly in June 1943 in Kuban bridgehead and in the end of 1944 in Kurland. Parts of Soviet 8.VDAAN (aeronautic battalion [дивизион] of artillery observation balloons) had used on Moonsund islands in Oct.-Nov.1944.

Positions of the balloons was covered by AA artillery and when possibly by fighters. Balloon observer had a parachute as a last resort. But the ground personnel usually had a time to lower the balloon before the fighter attack.

When in June 1943 Germans began to use the balloon in Kuban bridgehead, the group of 4 Airacobras several days had a special task to destroy it. But they succeeded only after several unsuccessful attempts. Observer had bailed out.

About the "little gain": the observation and artillery spotting by balloons were far more effective than the same by the aviation. But the use of the balloons was problematic in too many cases.

Best regards,
Andrey
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  #34  
Old 11th July 2018, 13:39
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Hi Guys

Regarding "reducing pilots scores" by not including non aircraft. Sorry, we were not trying to play "God" by deciding what was and wasn't a "Kill", we were always concerned about the "huge totals" being dismissed just because they were "huge totals", but we didn't reduce any without reason, reason being where did it end, could Hans-Ulrich Rüdel be the "top ace", perhaps double claims if Christmas day, or a sunday! Basically ignoring any "over-claiming" if it isn't an aircraft they didn't shoot-down an aircraft, would a wounded badge we awarded for the sniffles.....I think not.
We also excluded bordfunker claims, and those claimed whilst on the ground, the enemy aircraft had to be airborne. Many problems as well with "viermots". Somebody once enlightened me as to Italian claims, i.e everybody in the Staffel got a claim if somebody shoot one down, even if though airbourne they didn't fire a shot.

We could argue about half and quarter claims, but at least the aircraft fell.

Regards

Johannes
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  #35  
Old 11th July 2018, 16:13
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Thanks Everyone

Now I know a little more.

Cheers
Stig
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  #36  
Old 15th July 2018, 21:17
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Good afternoon Johannes,

would you accept Herausschüsse as kills ?

Have a nice evening,

Michael
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  #37  
Old 16th July 2018, 12:46
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Hi Michael


If given the power to determine what makes a "kill" I personally would not i.e the very meaning of the claim means you claim not to have shot it down, but damaged it enough to cause it to drop-out of formation, but I didn't make the rules.

Almost all HSS claims do not appear to have been confirmed, but were covered within the "points system" from mid-1943. Some e.v claims appear on the mikrofilms as just that e.v, some HSS appear as v.n.e-a.s.m.


Erwin Lastowski's flugbuch reveals many claims marked as "Abschuss", however those found on the mikrofilms for him he actually numbers, he has more "abschuss" than numbered i.e his confirmed claims 11-15. I assume his Ritterkreuz for a lowly score of ten confirmed Russian aircraft(plus one unconfirmed) and five confirmed "viermots" must surely have been supplemented by the "points system", he spent quite some time as a trainer, perhaps a gifted one, never became an officer so didn't get the Ritterkreuz for any great leadership qualities.

JG 2 alone sometimes shared "viermot" claims ie. two claims with same anerk numbers. Actually I found Egon Mayer with twenty-seven(not twenty-five) to be the top "viermot" expert, most quoted figures are exactly twice what I found i.e Bühligen, a few like Wurmheller and Friedrich-Karl Müller(JG 53) got a lot more, Müller got the most in the shortest time!


Regards


Johannes
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  #38  
Old 18th July 2018, 01:47
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Dear Johannes,

Willi Reschke writes in his book that in the point system a HSS counted twice as much as an eV. He describes a fight in which he and another pilot shot down one bomber together and simultanously. They shared the kill with the more valuable HSS going to the other guy who was higher-ranking and the eV going to Reschke.

Cheers,

Michael
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  #39  
Old 18th July 2018, 12:31
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Hi Michael

That sounds about right, 3 points to shoot-down a "viermot"....plus a "kill", 2 points for H.S.S claim, 1 point for E.V.

But that is generalising. With Oskar-Heinz Bär his own "200th" on 22nd April 1944(yet many of his "viermots" were not confirmed( by my own humble counting his 188th confirmed Bär I read, comes across a lone B-24 at a low altitude, he thinks the rear-gunner is already dead(everything would suggest then a H.S.S), the waiste-gunners state that the Fw190 that attacked them cut the top of their aircraft off, and that they could see the sky...…..this does not register as an E.V but a true "kill".

"Viermot abschusse" are never easy to explain.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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  #40  
Old 18th July 2018, 15:54
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Good afternoon Johannes,

Bär is one of my all-time favourites !
You were so kind to sent me your Bär kill list. Thanks again.
Can you tell me what the abbreviations "W.B." (11Oct42/13Mar43/23Mar43), "v.n.e-a.s.m" (25Feb44) and "A.S.M." (29Apr44/7Aug44) mean ?

I've found an other list that proposes that two of his 25Feb44 kills were HSS.

And have you ever come across an official document (passport/tombstone) that reveals if Heinrich or Oskar-Heinz was the name his parents gave him ?

All the best to you,

Michael
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