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  #11  
Old 6th July 2018, 19:30
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

That's true.

Wikipedia says that Düttmann claimed his last victory on 26 April 1945.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Düttmann
Is this a typo for his tank kill on 24Apr as indicated on your scan ?

Kind regards,

Michael
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  #12  
Old 7th July 2018, 01:39
Russ Fahey Russ Fahey is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Quote:
Originally Posted by knusel View Post
That's true.

Wikipedia says that Düttmann claimed his last victory on 26 April 1945.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Düttmann
Is this a typo for his tank kill on 24Apr as indicated on your scan ?

Kind regards,

Michael
Hello Michael,
Yes, the wikipedia entry is a mistake, possibly caused by a misread of the date in Düttmann's flugbüch. (The handwritten digit 4 could be mistaken for a 6.)
But the tank destruction was definitely claimed by Düttmann on April 24, 1945.
Russ
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  #13  
Old 8th July 2018, 06:34
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Good morning,

is Peter Düttmann the only ace with 100+ kills of whom some authors reported a total score that included tanks ?

Michael
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  #14  
Old 9th July 2018, 10:48
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Hi Michael

Can't say that I recall any other "100+" aces with 1945 panzer claims added to their totals. However John and myself did also exclude Fesselballon, simply they may float in the air, but don't fly/turn. One pilot here springs to mind Hans Beißwenger. By memory we had a total of 150 confirmed claims for him, plus one unconfirmed, plus one fesselballon which adds-up to be his largely accepted total of 152. John and myself only counted aircraft claimed in the air, no tanks/fesselballon/aircraft destroyed on the ground.

Another ace with panzer claims included in his total was Georg-Peter Eder with three.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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  #15  
Old 9th July 2018, 13:04
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

In my archives,I have also Hans Ellendt (JG52),two T-34 on 06/04/1945,Karl-Heinz Messer (JG4),one "Panzer"

I have many doubts about the veracity of these Tank destructions with the weapons of edge (20 mm (30 mm) cannons and 13 mm machines guns,by pilots specialized in the "hunt".

SG's pilots (specialized),having to use anti-tank shells (37 mm!) with Tungsten core.

Michel
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  #16  
Old 9th July 2018, 20:55
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
Hi Michael

Can't say that I recall any other "100+" aces with 1945 panzer claims added to their totals. However John and myself did also exclude Fesselballon, simply they may float in the air, but don't fly/turn. One pilot here springs to mind Hans Beißwenger. By memory we had a total of 150 confirmed claims for him, plus one unconfirmed, plus one fesselballon which adds-up to be his largely accepted total of 152. John and myself only counted aircraft claimed in the air, no tanks/fesselballon/aircraft destroyed on the ground.

Another ace with panzer claims included in his total was Georg-Peter Eder with three.

Kind Regards

Johannes
Good evening Johannes,

oh, very interesting.
Can you tell me the dates for Beisswenger's balloon kill and his unconfirmed claim ?

Kind regards,

Michael
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  #17  
Old 10th July 2018, 02:07
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
Hi Michael

Can't say that I recall any other "100+" aces with 1945 panzer claims added to their totals. However John and myself did also exclude Fesselballon, simply they may float in the air, but don't fly/turn. One pilot here springs to mind Hans Beißwenger. By memory we had a total of 150 confirmed claims for him, plus one unconfirmed, plus one fesselballon which adds-up to be his largely accepted total of 152. John and myself only counted aircraft claimed in the air, no tanks/fesselballon/aircraft destroyed on the ground.

Another ace with panzer claims included in his total was Georg-Peter Eder with three.

Kind Regards

Johannes
But surely, Johannes, that is you and John adjusting the pilots' victory claims tallies according to your own criteria and not the Luftwaffe's?

Thus, Beisswenger is 'robbed' of the balloon he shot down on 23rd September 1941, which would have been his "30th" victory and his tally reduced down to less than the accepted figure on nobody's authority but yours?

And whereas a balloon might not turn and shoot back the same way any other aircraft can, surely the flak defending it meant that it was not in any way a complete and utter sitting duck. The shooting down of a balloon was surely nobody's idea of a non-achievement.
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  #18  
Old 10th July 2018, 04:13
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Hector View Post
But surely, Johannes, that is you and John adjusting the pilots' victory claims tallies according to your own criteria and not the Luftwaffe's?

Thus, Beisswenger is 'robbed' of the balloon he shot down on 23rd September 1941, which would have been his "30th" victory and his tally reduced down to less than the accepted figure on nobody's authority but yours?

And whereas a balloon might not turn and shoot back the same way any other aircraft can, surely the flak defending it meant that it was not in any way a complete and utter sitting duck. The shooting down of a balloon was surely nobody's idea of a non-achievement.
Whilst I can see your point of view, you could just as easily apply that reasoning to vehicles, trains, gun emplacements and buildings. You have to draw the line somewhere.
Peter
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  #19  
Old 10th July 2018, 08:45
Andrew Arthy Andrew Arthy is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Hi,

The Luftwaffe itself drew that line, and balloons were included as aerial victories, whereas tanks, trucks, bridges etc. were not. See the attached from 1944, which lists the various victories against ground targets in one section of the daily report, and then the aerial victories (including a Fesselballon).

I'm a little doubtful about this "tanks being counted as aerial victories" story. There is a dubious, seemingly post-war entry in the Düttmann Leistungsbuch, and checking out the Eder story in Caldwell, the author notes that Eder filled out tank destruction reports for the Shermans, so I have strong doubts that they would have counted towards his aerial victory tally.

Michel, regarding Messer, I see he recorded the destruction of tanks and other ground targets in his Flugbuch (as did many other fighter pilots involved in strafing missions), but did he actually include these in his aerial victory tally?

I'd be happy to see any primary source evidence about this subject.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
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  #20  
Old 10th July 2018, 10:28
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Good morning Gentlemen,

in WW1 balloon kills counted as aerial kills. The top Belgian ace Willy Coppens would not have been an ace at all without his balloon kills.
http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/ww1-balloon.html
In WW2 balloon kills were more often counted separately, the top ace of that profession being Mr. Baljasnikov.
http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/b/balyashnikv.htm
I agree with Johannes and prefer to indicate WW2 balloon kills as
score(+balloon kills)
in my notes.

I suppose Beisswenger claimed his unconfirmed kill early in his career ?

Kind regards,

Michael
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