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Old 12th November 2011, 20:25
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Seeking photos of Stab and 5./StG77 Ju87Bs showing the rabbit insignia during or after the Polish Campaign

Hello,

We're currently working on the EOE color profile artwork for II./StG77 Ju87Bs during the Polish Campaign. It appears that from various photo collections and photos purchased on eBay with location captions, that the standard II Gr shields began to appear on unit aircraft at Radom-Sadkow Airfield in Poland, after the unit moved there on 10/11.9.39. The unit remained there until the end of the month, so the unit began the PC without unit insignias painted on their a/c, but over the course of their almost three week-stay at Radom, it is pretty certain that at least 4 and 6 St had their respective rooster and bull insignias first applied. I've got several photo examples that confirm that. It is reasonable to assume that both II Gr Stab and 5 Staffel also got their insignias there. I've got good photos captioned Radom that show a 5 Staffel Stuka there that has the II Gr shield, but no Staffel insignia painted inside. This appeared only on the port side, whereas it is known the both 4 and 6 St painted their insignias on both sides, so this was probably in the process of being painted on at the time. According to the standard reference sources (K & R #518, for example), the first version of the 5 Staffel insignia should be a running black rabbit "wearing a Polish 'czapka' hat. 1939 only." By the Western Campaign of 1940, examples show the later crouching black panther insignia that replaced the rabbit.

When I actually looked for an example of this running rabbit insignia in photos however, I don't have, or remember ever seeing, any examples of this completed insignia on a Ju87B. Presumably this insignia would have at least started to appear while the Staffel was a Radom, but I've got no photographic proof of this. Can anyone refer me to any photo sources for this insignia actually on an aircraft? It apparently didn't last out the year on unit a/c.

I also have no known photos of the black rampant lion insignia of Stab II./StG77 (K & R #516) on a Ju87B from the Polish Campaign period. I've got an excellent photo of one FL during the 1940 WC, but none during the 1939 period prior to the enlargement of the national insignias that took place just after the PC about mid-Oct., 1939. Can anyone refer me to photo sources for this insignia on a Ju87B prior to the change in the national markings in mid-October?

Thanks for your continuing help here. I've had excellent help on similar questions relating to profile issues from my board postings here, some made privately, and I want to thank you all for this help.

Regards,
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Last edited by Larry Hickey; 14th November 2011 at 10:34. Reason: Clarity
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Old 12th November 2011, 21:42
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Seeking photos of Stab and 5./StG77 Ju87Bs showing the rabbit insignia during or after the Polish Campaign

Hello,

On further research I found a photo of the 5 Staffel rabbit insignia on a Ju87B. This is on P. 43 of Karl Ries, Jr., "Markings and Camouflage Systems of Luftwaffe Aircraft in World War II," Vol. III (1967). This shows only a close up of the insignia on an aircraft, but I'd still like additional photography showing unit aircraft with full codes and carrying this insignia. The caption says "during the Polish campaign...", which suggests that this may only have been used until the PC was over, when it was replaced by the Black Panther design. This is consistent with my speculation that II Gruppe painted unit insignias on its a/c while based at Radom during the PC.

Regards,

Larry
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Old 13th November 2011, 20:09
KrisJG3 KrisJG3 is offline
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Re: Seeking photos of Stab and 5./StG77 Ju87Bs showing the rabbit insignia during or after the Polish Campaign

Some info. in Polish language:

http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=124526
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Old 14th November 2011, 10:25
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Seeking photos of Stab and 5./StG77 Ju87Bs showing the rabbit insignia during or after the Polish Campaign

Hello,

It is now apparent that the date info in markings reference publications about the 5./StG77 running Polish rabbit insignia is incorrect in both Ries and K & R. This is reported as being used only during 1939, with the black panther insignia then presumably replacing it. However, I've noted that S2+JN of that unit, which FL on the Ham Manor Golf Course in Sussex, England, on 18 August 1940, was still carrying the rabbit insignia. It had a W.Nr. and tail-center swastica that dates the a/c as being in service with that unit during the Polish Campaign period almost a year earlier. What this apparently means is that a/c of the unit serving when the insignia was originally applied at Radom AF during the PC, continued to carry this insignia until they were lost or transferred out.

This raises the question of when the second version of the unit insignia, the crouching black panther, was first used. Was it only applied to new aircraft being assigned to the unit after a certain date, but never retroactively applied to a/c with the previous rabbit insignia? This will have to be resolved before we can hope to do accurate color profile artwork for the 1940 period.

Does anyone have any dated photos or info that would confirm the date this changeover began? Do any photos exist of confirmed 5./StG77 aircraft operating with the new black panther version of the insignia during the Western Campaign of May-June, 1940?

Regards,
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Old 14th November 2011, 11:18
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Seeking photos of Stab and 5./StG77 Ju87Bs showing the rabbit insignia during or after the Polish Campaign

KrisJG3,

I've had the info you referred to by a native Polish speaker. His report: "this is must be a mix-up. They are trying to guess which army units were supported by Air Corps VIII. Nothing more."

Did you post the wrong URL? How does this relate to the question in my post?

Regards,
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Old 16th November 2011, 10:54
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Peter D Evans Peter D Evans is offline
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Re: Seeking photos of Stab and 5./StG77 Ju87Bs showing the rabbit insignia during or after the Polish Campaign

Not that I can currently add very much to this Larry, the following eBay image, posted by Peter/OldChinaHand on the LEMB, may prove of use/interest:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-German-...-/260885062164

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Old 16th November 2011, 19:34
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Seeking photos of Stab and 5./StG77 Ju87Bs showing the rabbit insignia during or after the Polish Campaign

Peter,

Thanks. I already had a pretty good image of this one in the EOE DB, but went ahead and acquired this one through the "Buy it Now" offer. This a/c, S2+EN, had actually already been selected as the Ju87B profile to represent 5./StG77 for the Phoney War period, so your note is most welcome. Hadn't noticed this eBay auction before. We'll see if it's any better than the image that I already have.

It appears that just for the Ju87B that there will be something over 200 Color Profiles in the project book series. A huge amount of work just to select and document all of these and prepare the artist's reference packages, much less to actually execute the artwork! And that is just one a/c type out of about 20 for the Luftwaffe alone.

Regards,
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Old 16th November 2011, 22:13
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Peter D Evans Peter D Evans is offline
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Re: Seeking photos of Stab and 5./StG77 Ju87Bs showing the rabbit insignia during or after the Polish Campaign

My pleasure Larry... always glad to help

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