Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

According to our EOE Luft loss/damages DB:

"October 16, 1939: 1./KG30 Junkers Ju 88A-1. Shot down by Green Section of No. 603 Squadron (S/L A. D. Farquhar, F/Lt A. V. R. Johnstone, and F/O P. J. Ferguson) and crashed in the sea 4 miles north of Port Seton following attack on HMS Southampton in the Firth of Forth 2.50 p.m. (Ff) Oberlt Siegmund Storp, (Beo) Oberfw Hugo Köhnke and (Bf) Oberfw Hans Hielscher all captured slightly injured, rescued by trawler Dayspring. (Bs) Obergefr Friedrich Krämer missing. Aircraft 4D+DH 100% loss."

A well-known, and previously published-photo exists of what is reported to be this a/c on cables being salvaged out of the water with a crane. It appears to have some kind of shield on the nose, but it doesn't appear to be the "gunsight on an umbrella" on a white shield, known to be used by this unit at that time. Does anyone have any other photos showing this a/c after being salvaged from the water, especially if they show the nose area where this shield appears to be, or the rear fuselage displaying the 4D+DH code. Does anyone have any info on the W.Nr. of this a/c? Surely many photos were taken of this Ju88A-1 after it was salvaged, but we haven't been able to locate them.

Related to this question, another 1./KG30 Ju88 crash-landed at Westerland, Isle of Sylt, upon returning from this mission. It is reported as:

"October 16, 1939: 1./KG30 Junkers Ju88A-1. Crash-landed at Westerland on return starboard engine badly damaged in attacks by F/O C. Robertson and P/O J. S. Morton of No. 603 Squadron following attack on British Fleet in the Firth of Forth 2.50 p.m. (Ff) Lt Horst von Riesen and rest of crew unhurt. Aircraft 45% damaged but repairable."

From the German side of this story, are any photos of this one known to exist, and does anyone have info on the W.Nr. of this one?

Regards,

[Peter Cornwell]

Larry,

You refer to the attached photo. The badge of the nose is patently the diving eagle of I./KG30 with what seems to be a dark base colour. The rear fuselage and tail do not appear to have been recovered but other photos will undoubtedly have been taken of what did survive. This has to be the aircraft of STORP as the cockpit canopy is intact and POHLE famously jettisonned his prior to ditching.

[Larry Hickey]

Peter,

I just CCed you on the initial artist's reference package for doing a major painting of this raid. I do have this photo previously from you of Storp's plane being salvaged. The insignia on the nose is a mystery to me. This aircraft should be 4D+DH and either carry a "white shield with a gunsight over an umbrella" or the new I./KG30 diving eagle insignia on a white shield. This is a dark shield with a thin white edge. This looks more like the II./KG30 diving eagle insignia on a red shield with a thin white outline. Can anyone figure out what we're looking at here? Doesn't fit my understanding of I./KG30 unit markings during this period at all.

It's rather important to sort this out, as this a/c is likely to be featured in a major painting in the EoE Phoney War Volume, showing attacking Spitfires engaging this a/c with HMS Southampton and the Firth of Forth RR Bridge in the background. Need to know W.Nr. to determine what this insignia is. The photo confirms that this a/c had a 3-bladed prop, but it would sure be useful to know the W.Nr. of this a/c, which should have been able to be determined by RAF intelligence from the salvaged portion of the wreck. This must exist somewhere in British records. I've also got to believe that better photos exist somewhere of the insignia carried by this Ju88.

Who can help here?

Regards,

[edwest]

I didn't know the Firth of Forth was in Scotland. The following book may contain the photos and references you need to get the remaining details.

http://www.amazon.com/Luftwaffe-Over.../dp/1849950008



You may also wish to contact the RAF Museum:


http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/




Ed

[Clint Mitchell]

Originally Posted by edwest

The following book may contain the photos and references you need to get the remaining details.

http://www.amazon.com/Luftwaffe-Over.../dp/1849950008

Sadly it does not.

[Larry Hickey]

Clint,

Thanx for the book reference. I don't think that I have this one in my library here in the States, but we'll check it out.

Your help is appreciated.

Regards,

[Clint Mitchell]

Larry, Ed West linked the book but I have a copy and it does not add anything to what is already known about these incidents.

[Allan125]

Originally Posted by Larry Hickey

Hello,

According to our EOE Luft loss/damages DB:

"October 16, 1939: 1./KG30 Junkers Ju 88A-1. Shot down by Green Section of No. 603 Squadron (S/L A. D. Farquhar, F/Lt A. V. R. Johnstone, and F/O P. J. Ferguson) and crashed in the sea 4 miles north of Port Seton following attack on HMS Southampton in the Firth of Forth 2.50 p.m. (Ff) Oberlt Siegmund Storp, (Beo) Oberfw Hugo Köhnke and (Bf) Oberfw Hans Hielscher all captured slightly injured, rescued by trawler Dayspring. (Bs) Obergefr Friedrich Krämer missing. Aircraft 4D+DH 100% loss."

Hi Larry

You either have a typo, or your information is at fault - S/L Douglas Farquhar, F/Lt A V R "Sandy" Johnstone and F/O F J "Ian" Ferguson were all from Green section of 602 (City of Glasgow) squadron and not 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron AAF, although I agree that the days activities were shared by both Auxiliary squadrons.

Telegram received from A.C.M. Sir Hugh Dowding GCVO, KCB, CMG, ADC AOC-in-C Fighter Command "Well done. First blood to the Auxiliaries" from 602 Squadron ORB - 17 October 1939.

"Sandy" Johnstone states "Farquhar decided to come on the detail this morning and chose to lead my Section (Green) with myself and Ian Ferguson".

Sources: "Lions Rampant - The story of 602 Spitfire Squadron" by Douglas McRoberts and "Spitfire into War" by AVM "Sandy" Johnstone CB DFC AE.

Unfortunately I do not have a copy of the photo though - sorry

cheers

Allan

[edNorth]

Local story-tails to ruminate from.

http://www.hmsmohawk.org.uk/MOHAWKS%...20War%20II.htm

[Larry Hickey]

Ed,

I've forwarded this info to the EoE artist, Jack Fellows, for use with creating the concept for the 16.10.39 Firth of Forth painting. I think he will find this very useful, as will we as we reconstruct this mission for the text.

Thanx for sending this.

Regards,