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  #1  
Old 27th May 2018, 20:08
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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152 IAP late P-40 Warhaws with red star on white circle insignia Aug 1944

Servus!

During the Finnish counter attack of the Ilomantsi battles August 1944 was made one peculiar sighting (for us modelling-minded ones at least).

Five Finnish HLeLv 28 Messerchmitts covered Finnish troops over Vellivaara area 9.8.1944. They fought aerial battle with five Il-2 escorted by five P-40 claiming two Il-2, the last confirmed FinnAF victories.

I quote from Keskinen & Stenman book LeR 2 (SIH No 17) the topical part:

""Kohtasimme viiden koneen KH- ja viiden koneen IL-2-muodostelman...
...Vihollisella valkoiset täplät kansallisuusmerkin kohdalla (punainen tähti keskellä). Näyttää kauempaa suomalaiselta kansallisuusmerkiltä."
"

(it is direct quote from battle report, "KH" = Kittyhawk).
The translation:
We met five plane KH- and five plane IL-2 formation...
the enemy (had) white spots on national marking location (red star on middle). Looks like Finnish national insignia from far away.


It is almost certain the fighters were P-40 from 152 IAP then based at Aitalampi. No other Soviet fighter unit was in the range AFAIK. If someone knows otherwise, all the better.

152 IAP seems to have avoided all publicity. Valeri Romanenko wrote something about the unit, but not of the later 1944 period ( http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/englis...p-40/index.htm )

Book Luftwaffen pohjoinen sivusta by Hannu Valtonen has something more for the unit.

152 IAP bases

20.6.1944 Sekee (Segeza) with 43 P-40

2.7. to Aitalampi (Ajta-Lamba 2)
http://www.fallingrain.com/world/RS/28/Aytalamba.html
14.8. to Verhnii Idel
2.9. to Sorokka

While Romanenko writes only about early P-40, 152 did clearly receive later P-40 Warhawk models as it lost P-40 N already in 9.12.1943. Also the P-40 strength at June 20 is full strength (new style) regiment.


My questions for the collective here is:
  • Are there known photos of lend-lease P-40N (or other later marks) with red stars on white circle?
  • When was the white circle/red star insignia taken in use in US (P-40) factories?
  • Are the serial numbers for the 152 IAP P-40N (and possible other 1944 subtypes) known? i haven't been able to follow Russian research for ages. Romanenko seems to have faded away? He was The Russian P-39/P-40 guy.
  • Did 152 IAP use bort numbers derived from serial or was it according pilot preference (like 195 IAP, for example)?

I really would like to crack this nut. Photo of 152 IAP P-40N would be the ultimate answer...


Cheers,
Kari
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Old 27th May 2018, 23:00
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: 152 IAP late P-40 Warhaws with red star on white circle insignia Aug 1944

Kari,

The complete list of 152 IAP planes is known by September 26, 1944. There is no direct link between their markings and S/N, only in a few instances which can be just accidental. I am not sure about the models, probably listed serials are just the short versions of the official U.S.A.A.F. serials, but if you are familiar with the potential P-40 batches, you can complete them in full. I hope this helps a bit as most of these planes had to be in service in August, 1944 as well.
Cheers,

Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 20th June 2018 at 19:18.
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  #3  
Old 27th May 2018, 23:28
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Re: 152 IAP late P-40 Warhaws with red star on white circle insignia Aug 1944

Helló!

HGabor. WOW! Thanks a million. I have to digest this a while. The best info ever for this subject.

All the best,
Kari
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Old 28th May 2018, 06:35
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: 152 IAP late P-40 Warhaws with red star on white circle insignia Aug 1944

Kari,
Glad to be of help. Let me add to the previous list 2 more P-40s on September 26, 1944:
S/N: 1863 (piloted by Maj. Hodakovskii, Regiment commander) and S/N: 355 (#65), piloted by Maj. Zsmurko, Dep. Reg. Com. - both planes belonged to the 152 IAP HQ, or Regiment Stab., not one of the regular squadrons.

As of the 152 IAP aerial activity on August 9, 1944:

Between 10:00-14.05 (Moscow time) 2 Kittyhawks flew recce. missions by the lead of Lt. Bogaterih? while bombing artillery positions in the No.1686-6 sector with 4 FAB-100 bombs (and strafing gunfire).

Between 14:05-15:22 (Moscow time) 4 Kittyhawks flew escort mission of 4 hrs and 30 mins total flight-time. The protected plane was an R-5 biplane of 5 OAP GFV in the No.2664-7,8 sector area.

(This day the 22 P-39 Aerocobras and the 12 Kittyhawks of the 1 гв. сад, including the 152 IAP Kittyhawks flew 43 missions (47 hrs 19 mins) altogether, including 33 P-39 Aerocobra (36 hrs, 13 mins) and 6 P-40 Kittyhawk (6 hrs 36 mins) recce. missions, plus 4 P-40 Kittyhawk escort missions (4 hrs 30 mins), - so I am not sure about the claimed IL-2s and the 5 reported Kittyhawks, - perhaps they belonged to different units.)

Gabor
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Old 28th May 2018, 08:49
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: 152 IAP late P-40 Warhaws with red star on white circle insignia Aug 1944

Gabor - given P-39's were also present that day, could any of them have had markings as described in the report? Could the P-39's have been mis-identified as P-40's?
Peter
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  #6  
Old 28th May 2018, 12:37
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: 152 IAP late P-40 Warhaws with red star on white circle insignia Aug 1944

I wasn't there, so I don't know ;-) Perhaps.
Gabor
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  #7  
Old 28th May 2018, 21:42
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Re: 152 IAP late P-40 Warhaws with red star on white circle insignia Aug 1944

Hello!

I compared the 152 IAP Curtiss construction numbers to those given in the Romamenko's article. They all seem to fall in the same P-40E range. Or Romanenko's numbers include also K and later subtypes.

Red star on white circle was ALSIB route marking, yes? Only 48 P-40 K arrived via that route according Romanenko.

7 VA concentrated four Il-2 regiments to Ilomantsi sector early August, 1944:
828 and 839 at Hirvas ( http://www.fallingrain.com/apts/41165.html )
17 GShAP and 214 ShAP at Sopokha ( http://www.fallingrain.com/world/RS/28/Sopokha.html ).


My first thought years ago was that the sighted planes were P-39 for which such markings were "normal". But there seemed to be no suitable unit in the range, then.

There was two Soviet Airacobra units which may come into question:

20 GIAP was based at "Sumeretsi" 14.7.-5.8. and then went to Gremjaha far away from Ilomantsi. Sumetetsi on the other hand is some 180 km from Vellivaara and less than 15 km from Ajta-Lamba 2 ,the 152 IAP base!
(see: http://www.fallingrain.com/world/RS/28/Sumerechi.html )
What if 20 GIAP still was there in 9.8.?


773 IAP was at Vitele (Vidlitsa) - also some 180 km away.


So these two P-39 units were in the same range as 152 IAP with P-40. Despite what I thought before pinpointing the locations of their bases done now. Mix up of types is a real possibility.

BTW I forgot to give the flight time for the Finnish Bf 109 quintet. It was 15.15-16.20 (16.15-17.20 Moscow time). This points also towards P-39 opponents.


On the other hand the quest for photo of 152 IAP P-40 from Summer 1944 still continues.



Cheers,
Kari

Last edited by Kari Lumppio; 29th May 2018 at 08:32. Reason: Corrected 19 GIAP to 20 GIAP
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Old 28th May 2018, 22:16
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: 152 IAP late P-40 Warhaws with red star on white circle insignia Aug 1944

Along with 152 IAP the 19 GvIAP and 20 KShAP also flew missions in the area with P-39 Aerocobras. Since the soviets frequently misidentified the Bf 109s and the Fw 190s, the Axis forces could also misidentify the P-39s and the P-40s.

August 9, 1944:

Between 13:30 and 16:48 2x2 P-39 Aerocobras flew recce. missions between 2000-600 m.
Between 8:15-9:15, 6 P-39s, led by Lt. Kochegin flew 6 hrs 05 mins. total time mission to Alakurtti airfield. Encounter with 2 Fw 190s
Between 12;39-13:25 3 P-39s flew mission to Kandalatskii? - 3 hrs, 10 mins.
Between 11?:23-17:45 4 (2x2) P-39s flew recce. mission to ~Kectenckovo?

20 KShAP flew missions eg. with:

10:40-11:03 - 2 P-39s
14:57-16:03 - 2 P-39s.

Gabor
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  #9  
Old 28th May 2018, 22:55
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Re: 152 IAP late P-40 Warhaws with red star on white circle insignia Aug 1944

Hello!

Corrected 19 GIAP to 20 GIAP in my earlier post. Is 20 KShAP and 20 GIAP one and the same unit?

19 GIAP was too far North to participate in Ilomantsi batlles (Louhi 13, Shongui, Gremhaja and later partly Murmashi).

My locattion data from Valtonen, which is "via Juri Rybin".


The two 20 GIAP P-39 at 14:57-16:03 are the likely "culprits". I believe it is now solved, thanks to you Gabor,

Cheers,
Kari

Last edited by Kari Lumppio; 29th May 2018 at 10:28.
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  #10  
Old 29th May 2018, 00:16
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: 152 IAP late P-40 Warhaws with red star on white circle insignia Aug 1944

Kari,

As you see, 2 Aerocobras are mentioned for the 14:57-16:03 time period, led by gv.ml.lt. Zhuchenko, as well as I read the unit name as 20 KShAP. No idea if it was the same as the 20 GvIAP. They used Cobras for sure. (Sorry, I don't know much about the Northern Front events and maps/landscape.)
Cheers,
Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 12th January 2020 at 05:40.
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