|
Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
I am interested in the circumstances surrounding the destruction of two 9 Squadron Wellington bombers on September 4, 1939.
One was shot down by Flak off Brunsbuettel, and the other destroyed by Sergeant Alfried Held in a Bf-109 of II/JG77 operating out of Fliegerhorst Nordholz. Can anyone please help me with information about either or both of these events which surely constitute the first Luftwaffe victories in WWII. |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Re: First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
Pardon?
|
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Re: First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
The claim is that the Wellington shot down off Brunsbuettel on September 4, 1939 was the first Luftwaffe victory over the RAF in WWII.
Is this not true, Franek? Tony |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Re: First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
yes alfred held was the guy. hans trobitch was too claimed the very first by pilots in unit pilot schremacker.has said. why held" in german means hero.
he had top honors.so held was it. Gary |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Re: First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
Tony, your sentence states "the first Luftwaffe victories in WWII" which is not exactly "the first Luftwaffe victory over the RAF in WWII". I have found that war on the east is often ignored, hence my reaction. No pun intended.
|
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Re: First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
Franek; I am not one ever to forget Poland.
But I am still looking for a source of information about the first action between the LW and the RAF. Surely this subject has been covered in detail by someone in a book or article. 10 Blenheims attacked the Schillig Roads off Wilhelmshaven on September 4. The Admiral Scheer's KTB says the alarm went off at 1752 hours as two bombs fell on the ship from what the sailors identified to be He-111. Scheer claims it shot down 3 Blenheims and also a Bf109, which presumably was flying a standing patrol from Jever and was the first LW casualty in the West. Is this true and does anyone know who the pilot and the unit was? 5 of the 10 attacking Blenheims were shot down, but not by the LW but by the Kriegsmarine and 2 Marineartillerieabteilung, later 2 Marineflakbrigade. Meanwhile another 5 Blenheims and 12 Hampdens from 49 and 83 Squadrons at Scampton (two of which were piloted by Guy Gibson and Leonard Snaith) got lost over Heligoland and returned to base. The Hampden sorties are not mentioned in Middlebrook's Bomber Command War Diaries. 14 Wellingtons (6 from 9 Squadron at Honington and 8 from 149 Squadron at Mildenhall) were sent to Brunsbuettel to attack shipping in the entrance to the Kiel Canal. One bombed Esbjerg in Denmark. 2 were lost, one to Flak and one to Alfred Held operating out of Nordholz. I wonder if anyone can throw light on how and where these two Wellingtons came down in what seems to have constituted the first LW victory over the RAF? |
#7
|
||||
|
||||
Re: First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
The unit which intercepted the British bombers was II./JG 77 which reported three kills of which two were confirmed as follows:
Lt. Metz claimed a Blenheim NE of Wilhelmshaven but he had no witnesses, thus it was awarded to the flak units. Fw. Held claimed a Wellington at 1815 over Brunsbüttelkoog for his first victory ten minutes before Fw. Troitzsch claimed a Wellington for his first kill, thus making Held the victor over the first British aircraft in air combat during WW 2. No Bf 109s were lost that day nor were any damaged in combat. The aircraft of Lt. Falke 2./ZG 26 was lost on take-off due to engine failure. I believe that this unit never made contact with the British bombers. The British claimed one German aircraft shot down, although none was lost to the bombers. Last edited by Sylvester Stadler; 2nd July 2007 at 02:31. |
#8
|
||||
|
||||
Re: First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
Tony,
The book Fledgling Eagles describes that day and losses in details. Regards, Michal |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Re: First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
Quote:
...but read the topic title! I have found that the topic title and original question are often ignored on this forum, hence my reaction. Cheers Rod |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Re: First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
I spoke too soon.
Yes, Brian. Bringing down the Bf109 was regarded by Scheer as a friendly fire incident. Was it piloted, by the way, by Lt Falke (Sylvester) or Lt Fake (Rob)? And was 2/ZG26 operating a) out of Jever and b) on a standing patrol? It is my assumption that there was no radar detection or control in those early days. Scheer's KTB records shooting down three German aircraft in four days; 1) Sept 4, this Bf109 shot down and the pilot killed while the Flak barrage was shooting at the Blenheims. Mellum was a couple of Kms north east of the Scheer. This must have been Falke/Fake 2) Sept 5, a Ju52 was shot down 3) Sept 7 another Ju52 destroyed. On Sept 5 the KTB of Marinestation der Nordsee in Wilhelmshaven included this entry (my translation). Cooperation between Fighter aircraft and ship-mounted Flak (Schiffsflak). Because of the shooting down by Scheer of one of our fighter aircraft, the question was examined of how to increase the safety of our own aircraft with regard to our artillery. Recognition signals are insufficient. (E-S.-Sterne unzureichend.) The fighter pilots state that recognition signals are ignored. For the time being the following regulation has been agreed with Fighter Command (Fuehrer der Jagdgruppe): "No fighter aircraft will fly over the Jade and the town of Wilhelmshaven". Additional regulations (covering better recognition signs such as the placing of lights, painted signs and definition of flightpaths and prohibited zones) will be worked out with Gruppe West". (source: Die Luftverteidigung im Abschnitt Wilhelmshaven 1939-1945 by Friederich August Greve; ISBN 3-9806885-0-X). |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Friendly fire WWII | Brian | Allied and Soviet Air Forces | 803 | 8th July 2023 15:47 |
RAF and RAAF ORBs available on the Web | Laurent Rizzotti | Allied and Soviet Air Forces | 43 | 23rd October 2015 14:46 |
Operation Jubilee aircrew list | Steve49 | Allied and Soviet Air Forces | 39 | 12th December 2010 22:00 |
German claims and Allied losses May 1940 | Laurent Rizzotti | Allied and Soviet Air Forces | 2 | 19th May 2010 11:13 |
56th FG - friendly fire case on 4 May 1943 - info needed | Lagarto | Allied and Soviet Air Forces | 28 | 12th March 2005 23:33 |