First Luftwaffe victory over RAF

[tcolvin]

Hi Franek. There is nothing to be sorry about. And, by the way, as you will know Wilhelmshaven was eventually liberated by the Polish armoured brigade.

I am asking a contact in Wilhelmshaven to send a copy of Scheer's KTB to Jochen so he can have documentary proof of the friendly fire event.

To answer your question, I made a mistake about the second Ju52. I did not read the entry in Greve properly. What he wrote (my translation) was:
"Two days later the regulation (made September 5 that Wilhelmshaven and the Jade were prohibited to aircraft) was tested. At 0755hrs the Fliegeralarm sounded on the Scheer. The ship opened fire on an approaching aircraft at a distance of 4,000 metres. The plane drew off at the first salvo and fired the recognition signal. It turned out to be a Ju52. After cease-fire and an exchange of messages it was reported that the aircraft suffered no damage". I apologise for my earlier mistake.

Greve's source is the KTBs of the Scheer and Marinestation der Nordsee. In case you and others might be interested and can understand German, this is what Greve wrote about what we must assume to have been Lt Falcke's death.
"Im Laufe des anschliessenden Gefechtes wurden die drei angreiffenden Maschinen (obviously the Blenheims) von der Bordflak der Schiffe abgeschossen. Hierbei geriet ein deutsches Jagdflugzeug vom Typ Me 109 in das Abwehrfeuer der Schiffe und ging durch Abschuss verloren. Der Pilot konnte nur noch tot geborgen werden".

Tony

[christian]

Hi

The Ju 52 D-AGZI war shot down down by own Flak by Schilling. The Ju was on the way from Kiel to Jever.

Christian

[Franek Grabowski]

Tony, apart of this was a tank division, it is correct. My uncle was there, I have his 'Solingen' hunting clasp-knife, perhaps a Wilhelmshaven trophy?

[tcolvin]

Franek. Yes, it could be a Wilhelmshaven trophy.
But do you know if your uncle or any other Polish armoured veteran had photographs of Wilhelmshaven? I am writing an article on Wilhelmshaven in 'Gestern und Heute - Then and Now' format and would be very interested inseeing them.
Tony

[Brian]

Hi Tony & others

Fascinating and most interesting - you may be aware that I am working on a friendly fire project-cum-book. These incidents were previously unknown to me. Any chance you could translate the report of the shooting down of the Ju52 on 5 September, please?


Cheers
Brian

[tcolvin]

Of course, Brian.

This is the bit from Greve's book previously referred to;
"On September 5 the Panzerschiff (usually translated as Pocket Battleship) Admiral Scheer in operation with torpedo boats of 6 T.Fl (Torpedobootsflottille) shot down a Ju52. This transport aircraft of the Luftdienst (note Christian gave it the civil registration D-AGZI) was identified in error as an enemy attacker (Angreifer). The wreck was salvaged by the Naval Shipyard (Kriegsmarinewerft Wilhelmshaven) on the orders of the station commander (Stationskommando). On the matter of the shooting down of two of their own aircraft, the following instruction was noted in the War Diary (KTB) of the North Sea Naval Station (Marinestation der Nordsee) on September 5, 1939". You can find a translation of the next bit in a previous posting of mine on this thread.

You might also be interested in this piece of analysis or comment by Greve;
"All the battles were marked by significant shortcomings in the sharing of information. Notification of fighter sorties and aircraft movements came too late to be used by the Naval Flak Command. There was no direct connection between the Flak on board ships lying in harbour and in the Schillig Roads, the Flak Gruppenkommando in Fort Schaar, and the Luftwaffe. So long as there were no buoys in Wilhelmshaven and the Schillig Roads with telex and telephone connections, then some method of emergency connection was vital. On September 9, 1939 ultra short wave (Ultrakurzwelle) stations were set up in Schillig and at the Third Entrance in Wilhelmshaven".

I will post a translation of the KTB when and if I get it, and I hope this has been of use to you. Good luck with the book.

Tony

[Brian]

Hi Tony

Extremely grateful. Your name has been duly recorded in the Acknowledgements section of my book (assuming it comes to fruition!).

Any relation to Derrick Colvin DFC, ex-249 Squadron?

Cheers
Brian

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by tcolvin

Franek. Yes, it could be a Wilhelmshaven trophy.
But do you know if your uncle or any other Polish armoured veteran had photographs of Wilhelmshaven? I am writing an article on Wilhelmshaven in 'Gestern und Heute - Then and Now' format and would be very interested inseeing them.
Tony

Tony, I have all photos of my late uncle but neither of them I can identify as Wilhelmshaven. Unfortunatelly, there is very little of in action photos, most of them being in Britain or in BFO (or what it was called). Perhaps Voy Tech has some, but otherwise you can ask for them in Polish Institute and Sikorski's Museum. In their vast holdings they should have plenty of them, but being an aviation buff I cannot tell anything more.

[tcolvin]

Franek; thanks for the source reference for photographs.
Brian; you're welcome, and no, I'm not a relation.

Tony

[Brian]

Hi guys

Can anyone tell me more about D-AGZI the Ju52 shot down by Scheer? Was it a Lufthansa machine? Who were the casualties?

Cheers
Brian