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  #1  
Old 5th January 2013, 22:34
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42

Hello friends,

according to the KG51 chronicle written by W.Dierich, during the Soviet routine raid against Armawir airfield (overcrowded by Luftwaffe bombers) at night 4/5.Nov.42 a grand fire was inflicted. Only one bomber from II./KG51
remained undamaged.

Can't find serious losses of II./KG51 in GQM returns and in "Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen". But II./KG51 was removed from Armawir to Bagerowo and reequipped.

Any additional details are interesting (maybe about other units on Armawir airfield also).

Best regards,
Andrey
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  #2  
Old 6th January 2013, 03:06
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
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Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42

You are right, Andrey. There is no mention of the 4/5 Nov 42 losses in the Gen. Qu.(6.Abt.) Verlustmeldungen or in the Dierich unit history book.


Armawir (RUSS) (e. Armavir) (44 58 29 N – 41 06 36 E)
General: Einsatzhafen (operational airfield) 168 km E of Krasnodar in N Caucasia. Rated for bombers. A large VVS air base with a flying school in Apr 42. Luftwaffe use from Aug 42 to Jan 43.
Remarks:
28 Aug 42: bombed – 1 x Bf 110 E-3 belonging to Stab/St.G. 77 destroyed.
25 Oct 42: bombed – 5 x Ju 88s from II./KG 51 and 1 x He 111 P-6 from Stab/KG 51 destroyed (4) or damaged (2).
4 Nov 42: a lucky bomb hit on a fuel dump during a night raid by Russian planes destroyed or damaged all but one Ju 88 belonging to II./KG 51 in a massive fire that forced the Gruppe to return to Bagerovo the next day to regroup and await the arrival of replacement aircraft.
2 Jan 43: 10 x Bf 109 G-2s from 7./JG 52 blown up to prevent capture.
10 Jan 43: 3 x Bf 109 G-2s from 7./JG 52 blown up to prevent capture.
Operational Units: Stab/ZG 1 (Jul-Aug 42); I./ZG 1 (Aug-Sep 42); Transportstaffel I. Fliegerkorps (Aug 42); Stab/KG 51 (Oct-Nov 42)?; II./KG 51 (Oct-Nov 42); Stab/KG 100 (Oct-Nov 42); I./KG 100 (Oct-Nov 42); I./KG 76 (Oct-Nov 42); III./KG 76 (Oct-Nov 42); Aufkl.St. 1.(F)/Nacht (Sep-Dec 42); Kurierstaffel 10 (Jan 43)?
Station Commands: Fl.H.Kdtr. E 23/IV (Oct 42, Jan 43).
Station Units (on various dates): Stab/IV. Fliegerkorps (Aug-Nov 42); 1. Flugh.Betr.Kp. KG 55 (Oct-Nov 42); Stab, I.(Betr.) and II.(Feldfernkabel-Bau)/Ln.-Rgt. 34 (Aug-Nov 42); Flak-Geräteausgabestelle 3/VI (Jan 43); 4.(Tel.Bau)/Ln.-Betr.Abt. (mot) z.b.V. 13 (Jan 43); elements of Lw.-Bau-Btl. 4/I (Oct 42); Stab and elements of Lw.-Bau-Btl. 7/XVII (Oct 42); Nachschubbezirk d.Lw. 2/VIII (Sep-Nov 42); Flieger-Geräteausgabe- und Sammelstelle 5/VIII (fall 42 – 1943); m.Flieger-Betriebsstoff-Kolonne 15/XI (c.Oct-Nov 42); Sanitätsbereitschaft (mot) d.Lw. 2/VIII (c.Aug-Dec 42); Sanitätsbereitschaft (mot) d.Lw. 4/XVII (Sep 42).

Larry








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  #3  
Old 6th January 2013, 10:46
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42

Hello Larry,

thank you a lot, your answer is comprehensive as usual!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry deZeng View Post
There is no mention of the 4/5 Nov 42 losses in the Gen. Qu.(6.Abt.) Verlustmeldungen or in the Dierich unit history book.
Yes

Best regards,
Andrey
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Old 6th January 2013, 13:23
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42

Dear Larry,

additional question:

do you use the NARA docs of the Korück 550 (AOK17) and Korück 531 (PzAOK1)?

Best regards,
Andrey
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Old 6th January 2013, 15:21
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
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Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov View Post
Dear Larry,
additional question: do you use the NARA docs of the Korück 550 (AOK17) and Korück 531 (PzAOK1)?
Best regards,
Andrey
Yes, I researched all of the Korück microfilms from NARA RG 242/T-501 (Records of German Field Commands: Rear Areas, Occupied Territories and Others).

Unfortunately, I did that work 30 years ago, which was before I became interested in Luftwaffe airfields. So there could be something in those Korück records about attacks on Luftwaffe-occupied airfields in North Caucasia. If so, I would have ignored it and not made any notes.

Sorry!

Larry
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Old 6th January 2013, 16:03
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42

Thank you, Larry!

So, hope remains to find something new in Korücks

Best regards,
Andrey
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  #7  
Old 7th January 2013, 02:11
kalender1973 kalender1973 is offline
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Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov View Post
Hello friends,

according to the KG51 chronicle written by W.Dierich, during the Soviet routine raid against Armawir airfield (overcrowded by Luftwaffe bombers) at night 4/5.Nov.42 a grand fire was inflicted. Only one bomber from II./KG51
remained undamaged.

Can't find serious losses of II./KG51 in GQM returns and in "Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen". But II./KG51 was removed from Armawir to Bagerowo and reequipped.

Any additional details are interesting (maybe about other units on Armawir airfield also).

Best regards,
Andrey
Hello Andrey,

I would say Dierich give a wrong date. Not in november but in october Bewegungsmeldungen indicates 20 losses by II/KG51 which based in Armawir at that time. Some of these losses are also in GQM returns.

See also
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=4314

Best regards,
__________________
Igor
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  #8  
Old 7th January 2013, 13:19
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42

Hello Igor,

yes, some losses were on 25.Oct, but II./KG51 remained active until 3.Nov. at least, and was relocated to Bagerowo for reequipment on 6.Nov. only.
So the raid on 25.Oct and the slaughter dated by Dierich on 4/5.Nov were different events.

Anyway, I hope to look at the Soviet side of the picture in TsAMO, if it will be possible.

Best regards,
Andrey
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  #9  
Old 7th January 2013, 14:05
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
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Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42

Hi Andrey,

If you go to TsAMO some day, I would be very interested in knowing if Soviet military intelligence - probably VVS intelligence - maintained files on all of the German-occupied airfields in the former USSR from the 22 June 1941 border all the way east to Stalingrad. Each folder would probably include air reconnaissance photos, agent reports, partisan reports, etc., regarding what the Germans were building on the airfield, what the condition of the airfield was, what Luftwaffe units were there and so forth. The surviving German documents for such information are almost non-existent. The Western allies had little or no information either.

Thanks,

Cheers,

Larry
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  #10  
Old 7th January 2013, 14:32
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42

Hi Larry,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry deZeng View Post
Each folder would probably include air reconnaissance photos, agent reports, partisan reports, etc., regarding what the Germans were building on the airfield, what the condition of the airfield was, what Luftwaffe units were there and so forth.
Didn't see such folders in TsAMO to date among many hundreds of folders which I got. But I'll try to find. It is interesting really. I'll let you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry deZeng View Post
If you go to TsAMO some day,
Not earlier than May or June, if it happens this year

Best regards,
Andrey
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