Bomber Aces

[Franek Grabowski]

Smudger
The problem is that those propaganda claims are actually aerial victories recognised and confirmed by authorities.
Sorry, I do not have will, knowledge or authority to revise any officially accepted figures. I understand that approved scores of such pilots like Bader or Johnson should remain untouched. It is a history. Of course, we may and we should research the other side but in most cases our knowledge and possibilities are too small to accuratelly describe what had happenned 60 years ago.
Returning to the subject of this thread. The question was about US 'bomber aces'. Mr Horowitz provided a reply, that once they were credited with 49 German aircraft destroyed, one gunner being responsible for 7 kills was promoted and sent back home. Did he provide inaccurate info?

[Smudger Smith]

FranekAccepted then, but if known to be inaccurate now, why continue to use them. All you are doing in perpetuating the myth and inaccuracy of the day. The continual use of proven inaccurate information is misleading and gives a distorted view of the aerial warfare over Europe, on all sides.Surely it is our job as researchers (I’m a amateur) to present the facts. There is a place for the propaganda aspect, it must however be used in context. When hype and propaganda distort known facts the facts are overlooked in favour of the more convenient dramatic alternative. Using the 49 aerial victories as an example, how many on this site actually believe this figure,? If a new member with only limited knowledge on the subject reads this post, his perception of the aerial battles over Europe are distorted and inaccurate. The myth continues..

[Christer Bergström]

If I had believed certain posts about the over-claiming of a number of Polish fighter aces, then you are telling me it’s ok, because after all it does not really matter. ?

Smudger Smith, due to the findings of John Alcorn - published in Aeroplane Monthly, September 1996 - the accuracy of claiming made by Polish 303 Sqn in the Battle of Britain was only 34 percent - i.e. a higher degree of overclaiming than any other unit participating in the Battle of Britain.

But I agree - it doesn't really matter that much. After all, the Poles contributed significantly to give the Luftwaffe a bloody nose, and that's what counts. The contribution by Polish 303rd Sqn even was above RAF average. You will be able to read about it in my forthcoming biographies on two Luftwaffe aces who participated in the Battle of Britain - on Hans-Ekkehard Bob and Max-Hellmuth Ostermann. (No, it is no "dual biography" this time, but two separate books, both due to be released next year, according to my publisher.)

[Franek Grabowski]

Smudger
Bader or Johnson's scores were accepted then but now we know they are inaccurate. But what number of victories should we use? We cannot verify with certainity scores of any of those airmen as we cannot with US gunners. Thus official score should remain, especially as I do not see any researcher with an authority to revise official scores. Thus said, a research is always possible on those topics but it should start with 'most likely' and not with claim, that someone lied.
Oh, and may I ask to not repeat any myths concerning efficiency of British intelligence during WWII? This is exactly the very same perception of a subject as in your sample.

Mr Bergström
When will you understand that due to obvious errors John Alcorn's findings are wrong and misleading?

[Smudger Smith]

Dear Franek,

I have said all along that all sides over-claimed, however when farcical numbers are continually used, i.e. the B17 raid which started this discussion, I personally feel that these figures are misleading and inaccurate and should were possible be amended.

Regarding the contribution of the Poles, I did not intent in anyway to tarnish their tremendous achievements, I just pointed out that certain ‘articles’ refuted the original claims made by the Poles. If you are willing to except over-claiming by others, why have you taken it upon yourself to question any criticism directed at the Poles, I quote your post..


The problem is that those propaganda claims are actually aerial victories recognised and confirmed by authorities.
Sorry, I do not have will, knowledge or authority to revise any officially accepted figures. I understand that approved scores of such pilots like Bader or Johnson should remain untouched. It is a history. Of course, we may and we should research the other side but in most cases our knowledge and possibilities are too small to accurately describe what had happened 60 years ago
.

I have enjoyed our discussion Franek, however I am sure we will both agree to disagree.

Regards


From London

[Franek Grabowski]

Smudger

Originally Posted by Smudger Smith

I have said all along that all sides over-claimed, however when farcical numbers are continually used, i.e. the B17 raid which started this discussion, I personally feel that these figures are misleading and inaccurate and should were possible be amended.

This will be opening of can of worms. I would like to note, that British WWI claims are a subject of similar debates. I suppose some scores of certain RAF aces could be put with a big question mark as well.
My point is that so many years after the war, with so many documents lost, we cannot prepare a complete and reliable list of German losses, not to mention circumstances of them. In the other words, we know that US gunners overclaimed heavilly, but we cannot say to which extent. We know they claimed 50 kills, but we cannot say if Germans lost nil, 5 or 10 aircraft to their actions. Hence any verification is not possible.

Regarding the contribution of the Poles, I did not intent in anyway to tarnish their tremendous achievements, I just pointed out that certain ‘articles’ refuted the original claims made by the Poles. If you are willing to except over-claiming by others, why have you taken it upon yourself to question any criticism directed at the Poles, I quote your post..

Please, re-read the quote carefully. I say that victories officially credited by various authorities should remain unchanged. My criticism is targeted to intentional distorting and manipulating documents or even providing unfounded statement in order to show Poles in a bad light. For example, a recent lenghty discussion on Skalski's claims. The opponent simply could not accept the fact that Skalski was credited with two victories already during Polish Campaign. You are from London, if you are willing to go on Princess Gate, I may provide you with a ref. no. of a respective document, so you can draw your own conclusions.

I have enjoyed our discussion Franek, however I am sure we will both agree to disagree.

I think it is not a matter of agreeing but a matter of misunderstanding.

Regards

[jhor99]

Smudger and Franek,
I had just joined the sqdn when the incident occured,
I also question the figure of 7 planes downed by 1 man. Enen though I read the account of each of the 7 planes downed. My reasoning is that 3 planes of the 6 in the sqdn were shot down. I'm sure that some of the gunners in those planes accounted for some of the enemy planes downed, since they were in very close proximity.
Having said that, I have no reason to doubt the total 49 number It was a prolonged running air battle, with no fighter escort. On a mission of that kind I'm quite sure that there were observers along in several planes, that had no duties except to observe.
I know that on my early missions we rarely had fighter escort. I personally didn't see many fighters, because I was consentrating in keeping the plane in very tight formation, but I was able to hear the talk over the intercom. What scared me the most was flak, which I could see, and had to fly through.

[Smudger Smith]

Franek,

One thing we Limeys and our Yank cousins share is a sense of humour, Franek you are tightened far too tight mate, loosen off.

End of ………..

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

Interesting debate going on. I will just like to mention that according to Wood's files the German fighters in question appear to have been from I. and III./JG 53 and I. and II./JG 77. The action took place from 11:20 to 11:50 and the Luftwaffe claimed 11 B-17 bombers. I am not at all knowledgeable on Sicilian geography so I can not be sure as to the locations but possibly this was the same raid that Mr. Horowitz was involved in. It would be interesting to attempt to discover what the JG 53 and JG 77 loss lists show even if they may be not complete. I do feel that even if we do have to acknowledge the credited scores of individual combatants, because these are after all the official numbers and probably will never change, I do agree that as individuals interested in knowing the facts we should when possible attempt to discover the real losses and not rely on claims which were almost always exaggerated even when made in good faith. This last point is valid for all air forces in nearly all wars. I must say that I feel it an honor to have a veteran with us and will take this opportunity to thank him for his service.

Horrido!

Leo