Walter Schuck´s and Franz Dörr´s first unconfirmed victories

[Monaco]

In his book „Abschuss“ (p.27-28) the then Gefr. Walter Schuck of 1.(Erg.)/JG 3 describes as he together with his Rottenführer Uffz. Franz „Papa“ Dörr t/o off at dusk from Bergen-aan-Zee on a patrol and discovered deep beneath them a four-engined bomber identified as a „Halifax“ flying west obviously returning after a night bombing sortie. Schuck attacked and hit the right wing, whereupon the bomber emitted a whitish cloud of liquid. The bomber then hid in a cloud bank some 50m above the sea. Schuck followed and discovered the shadow of the bomber again, when Dörr called him via radio „Sohndel (nickname for Schuck), I got a problem with my machine, the oil temperature is much too high and is still rising“. Schuck had to abort and accompy Dörr back to base on his dangerous flight over sea, but delivered a quick last attack claiming to have shot out the right outer engine of the four-engined and flaming the right wing. Because of Dörr´s emergency he could not observe further results and claim a victory. Dörr returned back to base safely to become like Schuck a great ace in JG 5.
The incident happened after 21.8.41 and before the beginning of September 1941. From time and location the attack could have happened on 29.8.41 on Stirling I N3666 of 7 Sq. RAF, though the bomber crew claimed to have been attacked by a „Me-110“ and the german pilots claimed a „Halifax“, but this could happen in difficult visual conditions (clouds, twilight).


According to Schuck „Abschuss“ Fw. Franz „Papa“ Dörr of 1.(Erg.)/JG 3 s/d a Wellington bomber at night in October 1941 from a small formation that the RAF to attack Esbjerg (Denmark), base of 1.(Erg./JG 3. One possible victim cozld have been Wellington IC Z8946 „DX-S“ of 57 Sq. RAF (P/O J.A. Watson & crew), that was lost during the night 26-27 October 1941 in fact on a bombing mission to Hamburg (t/o 1810 Feltwell). The crew was last heard on w/t at 2334h. It crashed in the tidal area S of Rømø Island with three crewmembers being KIA, the others were picked up by a marine vessel and taken to Sylt.
According to Flensted´s website: While on the return flight Z8946 was hit by flak from 2. Zug Der 3./ 836 which fired 60 rounds against the aircraft, which in turn crashed in the tidal waters south of Rømø island at 00:20 hours.

There are more doubts about this incident as I´m quite unsure if Dörr was capable of flying a Bf.109 in a October night with limited navigational aids and gain a success.

Sure enough both victories were not confirmed, Schuck did not even claimed...

Any adds/ commentswelcome!

[Franek Grabowski]

A few years ago I have corresponded with a son of a Soviet pilot downed by Schuck. Unfortunately his father was gone, but he knew the incident from his father accounts and when compared to Schuck's account from the book, the latter turned completely off. Therefore I am quite cautious with the memories. I would not dare to claim that this is an outright lie, but as long as there is nothing to corroborate like log book entries, any sort of situation report, etc., I would take it with a big grain of salt.
PS Now I have von Kirchmayr's account as a text file, but it needs some editing.

[igorrB]

Schuck was a huge overclaimer in Far North, and Dorr too.

[Johannes]

Hi

I have the Leistungsbuch of Dorr, he lists 122 abschüße in much detail with exact crash-sites, witnesses e.t.c all are Russian flown aircraft, none after October 1944. Of interest is that another over-claimer Heinrich Erhler is a witness many times during October 1944, as they were likely to have been working the over-claiming together I would say that Erhler was claiming heavily in October 1944. With Schuck he claims that Hermann Goring told him that twenty-five of his earlier unconfirmed claims had now officially been confirmed. That I am 99% sure just didn't happen. Schuck's total therefore is 206 minus 25 + 181. He may have over-claimed against the Russian's, but his jet claims would appear to be honest.......opportunism !!!

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Monaco]

Thank you all!
I´m fully aware about many JG 5 pilots did a lot of overclaiming, maybe except for the early birds like Dahmer, Carganico...
And I´m fully aware that personal memories should be treated with caution, I just wanted to put it "on the table" here, because maybe it´s of interest for someone and adds some "info" that is new for someone.

i.e. Kirchmayr being s/d on 15.10.41 was and the role of the later ace Jennewein new to me:
Two sorties in Rotte in the morning.Third mission t/o 13:10h with three Schwärme. Shot down by Spitfires attacking out of the sun from 8.000m in Bf.109E-7 Wnr.7677 (100% loss), baled out over the Channel 80-90km from the coast near Epeuville, sighted whilst descending by Fw.Pfeiffer (who was pursued out of ammo by 2 Spitfires N to S) and later by his comrade „Peppi“ Jennewein, who led the rescue boats in, rescued and picked up at 20:22h from sea by ASR squadron Cherbourg after finding the pilot with searchlight. Kirchmayr was three days in Rouen hospital (body temperature was 28°C) and back at the Staffel on 20.10.41. Jennewein reported on 15.10.41: „ At 18:56h t/o as Rottenführer with Fw. Pfeiffer for ASR mission. Flew 310° (course) where at 13:32 my wingman had sighted a parachute. Then I sighted red rocket right ahead. Turning around I overflew a small dinghy at 19:13h the position with 312° at 100m altitutde with 400km/h. At 19:24h reached coast at the most northwestern houses of St Abbey reported the position by FT“
JFS 5 also lost on 15.10.41 Lt Elmar Resch in a crash with Bf.109F-2 Wnr.12691 (100%) near Le Havre (WIA) and Bf.109E Wnr.5617 on t/o at Le Havre A/D (65%) - Kirchmayr´s diary says two more losses by JFS 5 and nearly all Bf.109s took hits, successes claimed, but not confirmed. Of 234 Sq. RAF S/Ldr. H.M. Stephen and F/O P.I. Howard-Williams claimed 1 Bf.109F shared s/d, other pilots from the Squadron 1 probable and 3 damaged and 118 Sq. RAF pilots 2 Bf.109Fs s/d off Le Havre after t/o from Ibsley at 12:30h. Earlier W/Cdr. H.C.A. Woodhouse (GC of Tangmere Wing) and one pilot from 129 Sq. RAF claimed 1 Bf.109F each at ca.12:45h and 12:35h off Le Havre.

RAF did also huge overclaims in the early years, but there seem to be more German losses than in the official lists.

[Johannes]

Ernst Obermaier's biography of Dorr states his first "victory" was a Wellington on 29th September 1941. But as stated before Dorr does not have this in his Leistungsbuch, in fact his first claim was not until 9th May 1942. There would appear to be NO erg./JG 3 claims as earlier typed-out mikrofilms, perhaps they didn't survive, or never had any confirmed claims.

Dorr did give each of his claims a number, and nr1-100 he lists are all recorded on mikrofilms. I therefore assume those nr.101-122(October 1944) were correct......but "over-claims" . The Leistungsbuch of Werner Lucas includes unconfirmed claims, and they are noted as such.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Franek Grabowski]

Hi
There is a difference between officially created documents and memories. Not that memories should be plainly rejected, but they must be tested as to their reliability. Some are very credible and some a work of fiction. Still, one may got surprised. Quite recently, I was going through a generally unreliable memories. There was described an event that could not have been corroborated by available documents and I considered it a fantasy of the author. Still, I was able to find another memories, corroborated by documents, which allowed to confirm the event. I cannot explain the gap in documents.

Regarding Kirchmayr, it seems that his memories are reliable. The combat on 15.10.41 has been discussed on the forum, so you can check information there.
The general problem with the Allied victories is that nobody did a proper scrutiny, and the German records are nearly non-existent. It is much easier to assess Allied scores in the Battle of Britain, where despite numbers of aircraft involved, there is a fair collection of combat reports, and there is a pretty good record of losses of both sides,at least on land as there is evidence of some unrecorded German losses or inaccurate information on those lost in sea or in France. For the German victories in the same period it is nearly impossible to attempt a verification, as there is no complete set providing such essential data like time and place, not to mention any reports or accounts.
Nonetheless if you move forward, especially into 1941-42 period, the information about losses of both sides become vague at times. Certainly, the recent release of Casualty Reports do allow for some corrections, but certainly are not exhaustive. Nonetheless, at least in numbers there are no gaps, except perhaps some slightly damaged aircraft. As for Germans, well, almost nothing. So, we most often do not know what unit was engaged, and certainly some Allied reports must raise an eyebrow, like a mention of a Me 109 downed by own Flakship and not claimed by Allies. Still the loss is not reflected in available documents. A researcher's nightmare.