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Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

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Old 20th July 2009, 18:02
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Soviet losses on 5 VII 1943

During the Kursk's battle Soviet had send big air formation to attack German airfileds on 5 VII 1943. This attack was smashed in air by LW fighters, which had claimed about 120 victories.

I wonder about exact LW and Soviet VVS losses on 5 VII 43 during these air battles?

Regards,
mw
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Old 20th July 2009, 18:31
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Evgeny Velichko Evgeny Velichko is offline
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Re: Soviet losses on 5 VII 1943

You need to look at "Raskolotoye Nebo" by Oleg Rastrenin, there are actual losses of Il-2 units.
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Old 21st July 2009, 12:02
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Soviet losses on 5 VII 1943

Thank you for your note, I wonder if this book is available on the web. In Russia there are many printed books of WW II. A very small part of them I have at home. Just I do not have this book, :-(
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mw
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Old 21st July 2009, 16:22
Arsenal VG-33 Arsenal VG-33 is offline
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Re: Soviet losses on 5 VII 1943

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski View Post
Thank you for your note, I wonder if this book is available on the web. In Russia there are many printed books of WW II. A very small part of them I have at home. Just I do not have this book, :-(


Regards,
mw
An old version on 23 AG.ru about Il2

Somewere in the web you've got Khazanov and Gorbatch works; j'm sure but i don't remember the @.

In french http://www.aerostories.org/~aerobiblio/rubrique20.html in two volumes.


Regards
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Old 21st July 2009, 18:02
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
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Re: Soviet losses on 5 VII 1943

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski View Post
During the Kursk's battle Soviet had send big air formation to attack German airfileds on 5 VII 1943. This attack was smashed in air by LW fighters, which had claimed about 120 victories.

I wonder about exact LW and Soviet VVS losses on 5 VII 43 during these air battles?

Regards,
mw
ROUGHLY, about 25 109s and about 8 190s seem directly lost and damaged in air combat in the area. These are approximate.
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Old 21st July 2009, 18:19
robert robert is offline
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Re: Soviet losses on 5 VII 1943

Hi,

e.g. 163 IAP lost five Jak-9/Jak-7B in 40-minute air combat with Fw 190s.
347 IAP lost 4 four Jak-9 and one further damaged around 08.00 a.m. while attacking a group of He 111 and Ju 87. In a second mission the Regiment Commander was lost to Fw 190 fighters. And so on and on...

Robert
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Old 22nd July 2009, 00:46
yogybär yogybär is offline
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Re: Soviet losses on 5 VII 1943

Mirek, I wrote a small article on this long ago:
http://www.yogysoft.de/Belgorod.htm

There is also a link to a more detailed (german) article by a friend of mine.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 11:18
Jan Gazda Jan Gazda is offline
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Re: Soviet losses on 5 VII 1943

Indeed, the Soviets took terrible beating on the first day of Zitadelle. The Soviet air raids against the German airfields in Kharkov area cost the Soviets at least 33 Il-2s and three fighters which is in accordance with some 40 claims from German fighters. Overall the fighting on the first day took incredible toll on Soviets with their losses amounting to some 250 aircraft. 2 VA lost 78 a/c (36 fighters, 27 Il-2s and 15 bombers), 16 VA lost 100 a/c (83 fighters, 16 Il-2s and one Boston) and 17 VA lost 70 Il-2s and some fighters. Apart from Rastrenin's book mentioned above some good detail can be found in Kursk: The Air Battle by Bergström and in Aviacia v Bitve nad Orlovsko-Kurskoj Dugoj by Khazanov and Gorbatch (also mentioned above and on-line can be found here : http://militera.lib.ru/h/hazanov_gorbach/index.html )

Jan
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Old 23rd July 2009, 19:14
kolya1 kolya1 is offline
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Re: Soviet losses on 5 VII 1943

Here is what I have (losses to all causes) :

- On the northern face :

Khazanov's work published (in French translation) in July 2008 in the "Batailles Aériennes" periodical shows 83 losses for 2 VA and 50 for 17 VA on the 05/07/1943.

Gorbach's 2007 book mentionned 76 losses for 17 VA (an extremely high loss rate for 446 day sorties, much higher than the loss rates of the other VA, or its own losses in the following days).

The Luftwaffe lost at least 31 airplanes destroyed and 8 more with more than 40% damage, 19 more were damaged.

- On the northern face, all sources agree in giving 98 losses for 16 VA

The Luftwaffe lost at least 24 airplanes destroyed, 2 damaged more than 40%, and 12 more damaged.

- Which gives us a total of at least 231 Soviet losses for at least 55-65 German ones (depending whether you include or not heavily damaged planes as "lost"). During the whole battle (up to 23/07 in the South, up to 11/07 in the North), the ratio of Soviet/German losses in airplanes should be around 2,5-3,5 to 1.


Note that the Soviet figures are global figures given by the authors, while German ones are an addition of individual losses by myself, therefore some German losses may be unnoted in my figures, and, as shown above, Russian sources don't all agree about 17 VA losses...

But I hope that may help you.
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Old 25th July 2009, 16:12
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Soviet losses on 5 VII 1943

Great thanks for this information. Now is more clear, then was before!
One again, great thanks for all, :-)
mw
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