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  #31  
Old 18th February 2010, 20:03
Huub Vink Huub Vink is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

As I don't have the same documents and I don't have all the limits for every nuclide in my head I can not confirm or deny that an activity of 74 kBq on a wristwatch is below the threshold above which a permit is required.

Radium is an alpha emitter. As the alphas are blocked by the glass of the instrument you can only measure the secondary radiation. It is therefore virtually impossible to calculate the real activity. But on several instruments I have measured a dose rate above 25 µSv/hr, while the exposure limit for non-radiation workers is 1 µSv/hr.

As it is very hard to translate Dutch legislation I will write you an e-mail to explain the legal context. (I still must have your e-mail address somewhere).

For the Americans there isn't a real problem. In the US an aviation instrument is considered a sealed unit, therefore the presence of radio-active material is not taken in account.

Regards,
Huub
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  #32  
Old 25th February 2010, 16:32
taitbb taitbb is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Here is a link to the Canadian legislation.

http://www.nuclearsafety.gc.ca/eng/r...es/index.cfm#3

A2. A person may possess, transfer and use any number of radium luminous devices without a licence, provided that radium is the only nuclear substance in the device and the device is intact and not tampered with.

Q8. What about public displays? A8. If a radium luminous device is on display, a public access boundary should be placed to exclude access to at least one metre from the display. Radium luminous devices should never be used in ‘hands-on’ displays.
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  #33  
Old 3rd March 2010, 02:14
BOBC BOBC is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Liad Van Praag
It appears from what I read that you need to have an approved reason for storing these and collecting is not sufficient reason in your country, though such is allowed elsewhere, even over the border in Belgium, but a museum in your country would be allowed to store and display them. I suggest you contact museums and have them take these internationally important and not to be destroyed items and display them on long term loan from you. Such can be displayed in other countries. Museums are about preserving valuable pieces of history and should jump at the chance, especially if you have aviation museums there.
Also is there any law in having these items removed from Holland ? Try museums outside of Holland. Even collectors outside of Holland. I know of one in Belgium. Get it written down as to who has ownership...i.e. you. Collectors will be glad to provide a service to preserving what are historically invaluable items. Items that are allowed outside of your country if they are in a safe intact state. There is also mention on Key Publishing forum of a replacement glass that will render them safe.
Ownership of these is not illegal, having them not in a museum in your country is, so make arrangements to have them resited elsewhere. The museums or collectors travelling to where they are now held to remove them out of Holland or into Dutch Museums.
You are but a keeper in this timezone of items which must be preserved. These are of international significance and your local police should not have the power to destroy items of this importance just because they were sited in your house. Pay the fines and plead ignorance. State that you were building up a finite complete item before seeking museum display opportunities, as no museum would want a part project.

Hope these ideas help you. I shall personally be outraged if the authorities there destroy such historic items when safe display is but a sensible level headed phone call away. You were not holding these so as to use them in a deliberate way to cause harm. They should focus their attentions on the more seedy side of life in Holland, on people that are a pain in the side of society there and not on individuals who unknowingly have broken a law, a law that is not even existing in other sane countries. They the authorities would be displaying levels of irresponsibility, not you. They would be the criminals. Who were you harming, yourself. Perhaps they can shoot you for harming yourself ! Certainly the emotional and financial damage they will do to you will be more harmful than the harm of keeping intact instruments. Certainly though any damaged ones or those with dust from contact with broken ones should be removed and cleaned in an approved way or disposed of as such. Sensible cleansing with correct protective clothing, approved glass replacement etc will render those items valuable enough to warrant this displayable again.
Get a good lawyer. These are items that are ok to be sited in some buildings in Holland, just not your premises, simple, get them moved. Re-possess them but away from your premises and sell some to ofset lawyer costs. Make sure the authorities are aware they must be seen to be sensible about this and take part in the resiting of such historical items, otherwise others with such in their possessions will be frightened to rehouse them, they will disappear into attics etc which is counter productive to the authorities aims and where more harm can be done according to them, though the danger to neighbours would appear to be nil anyway !

One also wonders how many you are allowed to have, would one be ok ? I am aware of large pocket watches that have Radium on their faces, do the police also burst into watch collectors houses and seize such ? wartime watches can have celluloid faces, surely thats less protective than glass ? Its the radium thats illegal, not the instrument, so if watch collectors with such are legal, you may try for a loophole in the law there. I have also seen WW2 army compasses with radium on the outside, are they illegal ? Is a collector of jeeps in your country also going to be pounced on, their instruments contain radium I see according to forums. Your lawyer must get these resited and the case laughed out of court if similar collectors are still legal.
BOBC
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  #34  
Old 11th March 2010, 00:18
Thruster763 Thruster763 is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Hi,
I'm new to the forum, but would like to comment on this subject. While it is unfortunate that the instruments were confiscated, I must say that keeping this number of instruments in a living space is a very bad idea. Assuming the instruments are not broken or disassembled, the biggest problem is Radon (222Rn) gas. This is a decay product of the Radium. It deposits it's own decay products (including radioactive Lead and Polonium) in the lungs. This causes direct radiation to delicate tissues and can cause lung cancer. Turn and Bank (slip) indicators are one of the worst offenders. They can have large areas of paint behind the slip bubble, and a large air intake area for the Radon to escape.
The UK HSE recommends an "Action Level" of 2.5uSv/hr radiation exposure rate at the pilots seat of an aircraft with radium instruments. This would also be a good guide for the radiation at the normal viewing distance from a display. Most importantly owners should under NO circumstances try to remove the radioactive paint to make the instrument "safe". This will just spread contamination around the work area and possible internal contamination. If an instrument is broken, use disposable gloves and seal it in at least two plastic bags.
Disposal is a big issue, in the UK there is no permanent disposal site for Radium, it has to be stored. Don't keep instruments in occupied areas especially bedrooms. Storage should be well ventilated. On Geiger counters, it's hard to recommend anything specific, but I can give some definite no's. Don't use the Plessey PDRM-82 series that are cheap on ebay. they will not give any response below that which is a serious and immediate threat, certainly not the "hottest" aircraft instrument. Also avoid ex-military RADIAC meters. Most are too insensitive or are too old to be reliable. To measure the dose rate (amount of exposure), make an assessment (not even reasonably accurate measurment) of the quantity and check for contamination would require at least two, probably three quality instruments (possibly one instrument with two or three specialised probes). This is not a job for a cheap ex soviet radiation meter bought on ebay. While I personally think the risk from instruments is small, there a principle called ALARP (As Low As Reasonably Practical) for radiation exposure, this means the authorities take different and variable views. ALARP is a good idea. Unfortunatly while the risk is low, the benefit of collections is also low (in the eyes of the regulators). A quick disclaimer, I'm not a radiation expert, but a keen hobbyist. I'm also a licensed avionics engineer and have worked in instrument repair shops.

Robert.
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  #35  
Old 10th September 2010, 05:20
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Flying_pencil Flying_pencil is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

I realize this has been a while, but any news on this?

Also, it is a important lesson for the rest of us.

S!
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  #36  
Old 27th October 2010, 03:25
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wwiiaircraftinstruments wwiiaircraftinstruments is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Hello,

There is still no news regarding the confiscation of my WWII instruments!!

Though I did receive scans of the confiscated items a while ago.

Just send me an email and I will forward it to you.

Kind regards,

Liad van Praag

Last edited by wwiiaircraftinstruments; 27th October 2010 at 05:28.
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  #37  
Old 31st December 2011, 23:44
mathieu mathieu is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Hi Liad,

Wonder if there is any news concerning the instruments. I heared rumours that most went to the collection of Aviodrome in Lelystad, is that correct?

Regards,

Mathieu.
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  #38  
Old 21st August 2016, 04:20
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

I realize this is resurrecting a zombie, but wondering if there is any news.

AND, new laws and such for collectors to be aware about.
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