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Old 18th October 2018, 04:14
Broncazonk Broncazonk is offline
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In hindsight, who was the top day scorer?

Given what we know today, after decades of intense research, after comparing all the claims with Allied loss reports, after reconciling all the various lists with other lists: who was on top? Who had the most?

It wasn't Eric Hartmann. It probably wasn't Gerhard Barkhorn. It wasn't Walter Nowotny or Erich Rudorffer, etc.

Otto Kittel?

It might have been Gunther Rall or Heinrich Bär, no?

Bronc
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Old 19th October 2018, 03:29
kaki3152 kaki3152 is offline
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Re: In hindsight, who was the top day scorer?

I'd say Helmut Lipfert
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Old 19th October 2018, 07:24
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: In hindsight, who was the top day scorer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broncazonk View Post
Given what we know today, after decades of intense research, after comparing all the claims with Allied loss reports, after reconciling all the various lists with other lists: who was on top? Who had the most?

It wasn't Eric Hartmann. It probably wasn't Gerhard Barkhorn. It wasn't Walter Nowotny or Erich Rudorffer, etc.

Otto Kittel?

It might have been Gunther Rall or Heinrich Bär, no?

Bronc
I would have thought someone would have created a revised list by now ...... Or is no-one confident enough in their work?
Peter
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Old 19th October 2018, 08:44
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Alfred.MONZAT Alfred.MONZAT is offline
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Re: In hindsight, who was the top day scorer?

I think there's too much incertitude, you can't always be sure who shot down who/what, so it's unlikely a definitive answer would came from such work. It's also a sensible subject.
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Old 19th October 2018, 09:36
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: In hindsight, who was the top day scorer?

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Originally Posted by Alfred.MONZAT View Post
I think there's too much incertitude, you can't always be sure who shot down who/what, so it's unlikely a definitive answer would came from such work. It's also a sensible subject.
Alfred, did you mean sensitive?
Peter
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Old 19th October 2018, 10:39
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: In hindsight, who was the top day scorer?

Hi Guys

It is hard to say, personally I count anything officially confirmed, fact or fiction.
But it is becoming clear that the greater the score, the higher percentage of fraudsters appear. From the "200" club.....Rall, Kittel, Bär, Lipfert seem honest, Barkhorn not so bad Rudorffer, Graf, Hartmann, Weissenberger, Ehrler, Nowotny(worst of all) fraudsters, not sure but suspect Batz not honest, suspect Hafner honest. Schuck total certainly only 181 Philipp included unconfirmed in his 206, and suspect dis-honest.
Excluding Marseille most ten or more in a day claimers were not honest.

Temperment wise it's not easy to judge, Graf was a quiet man, Wurmheller an egoist, yet both highlighted faudsters, Marseille was an egoist yet honest. Usually it's guys like Emil Lang who claim huge numbers in a short period of time who told whoppers, usually with other over-claimers i.e Lang/Hoffmann, Nowotny/Loos, Rudorffer/Tangermann.

Usually a fraudster only over-claimed when the opportunity was available i.e partners in crime, usually after a transfer they score very slowly, and come to grief, they are usually also of higher ranking order flying for the staff.


Whatever happens you can be sure that Germany is not going to re-write the history books on this

Regards

Johannes
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Old 19th October 2018, 10:54
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Re: In hindsight, who was the top day scorer?

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Alfred, did you mean sensitive?
Peter
I mean delicate.
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Old 19th October 2018, 11:37
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: In hindsight, who was the top day scorer?

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Originally Posted by PMoz99 View Post
I would have thought someone would have created a revised list by now ...... Or is no-one confident enough in their work?
Peter
The enormity of the task is a hurdle in itself. As Barbas stated as far back as the volumes he published back in 1985, there were 92 pilots credited with tallies greater than that of Adolf Galland. If we want to examine every pilot's tally fairly and thoroughly, it's hardly going to be a five minute job.

As Johannes said, Germany is not going to re-write the history books. The tallies will remain the same "officially", but we will gain a better idea of how much each tally stands up to comparison with enemy losses and a better idea of who shot down the most real aircraft. Our view of who the "top aces" were will evolve accordingly.
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Old 19th October 2018, 13:05
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: In hindsight, who was the top day scorer?

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Originally Posted by Nick Hector View Post
The enormity of the task is a hurdle in itself. As Barbas stated as far back as the volumes he published back in 1985, there were 92 pilots credited with tallies greater than that of Adolf Galland. If we want to examine every pilot's tally fairly and thoroughly, it's hardly going to be a five minute job.

As Johannes said, Germany is not going to re-write the history books. The tallies will remain the same "officially", but we will gain a better idea of how much each tally stands up to comparison with enemy losses and a better idea of who shot down the most real aircraft. Our view of who the "top aces" were will evolve accordingly.
I accept that. But as Bronc said, researchers have been banging away at this for decades. Surely all that work has not been a waste? Surely after all that research someone must be able to come up with what is now considered a more accurate list.

I also accept such a list can never be 100%, and that official totals will remain as they are, but if one can't come up with something other than "he was dishonest" or "he was an overclaimer" after so much time and effort, what was the point? And I wouldn't accuse someone of being dishonest or an overclaimer if only a small percentage of their claims are suspect.
By now surely one should be able to come up with a comparison of "official total or total claimed" to "proven kills" with any gap being made up of "no matching allied/axis loss" and "may have been claimed by several pilots".

Peter
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Old 19th October 2018, 13:08
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: In hindsight, who was the top day scorer?

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Originally Posted by PMoz99 View Post
I accept that. But as Bronc said, researchers have been banging away at this for decades. Surely all that work has not been a waste? Surely after all that research someone must be able to come up with what is now considered a more accurate list.

I also accept such a list can never be 100%, and that official totals will remain as they are, but if one can't come up with something other than "he was dishonest" or "he was an overclaimer" after so much time and effort, what was the point? And I wouldn't accuse someone of being dishonest or an overclaimer if only a small percentage of their claims are suspect.
By now surely one should be able to come up with a comparison of "official total or total claimed" to "proven kills" with any gap being made up of "no matching allied/axis loss" and "may have been claimed by several pilots".

Peter
Well, I think we are slowly getting to the point that you describe, Peter.

But let's not forget the very question of the the thread:

In hindsight, who was the top day scorer?

....It appears we are not there yet. That's a little further away it seems.
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