First P/R overflight of Moscow?

[Richard Aigner]

IPMS Austria has an article on a superb model of Ju88B-0 "K9+RH":
http://www.ipms.at/webalt/index.php?...=399&Itemid=44
greetings, Richard

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

I am pretty sure this is the aircraft that came down in western Ukraine just a few days before 22 June 1941.

Larry you are wrong, it was exactly on 15.04.1941 (2 months before), N-E near Równe a Ju 86 P-1, with 2 crew, one engine had stopped.
The crew had to lower altitude.

The plane was forced to land by I-16 of 46. IAP by st lejt/kpt. Petr Szałunow/Salunov. Later, there were found five bullets in the plane five/5 bullets holles.

So it is much possibility the damaged plane was extra shot down by Soviet pilot, who deliberatly "help" in this earlier force landing.

Regards,
mirekw

PS
The crew escaped from prison and returned to his companions after 22/06/1941

[Larry deZeng]

Larry you are wrong, it was exactly on 15.04.1941 (2 months before), N-E near Równe a Ju 86 P-1, with 2 crew, one engine had stopped. The crew had to lower altitude.

Thank you, Mirek. I love it when you tell me and others here that we are wrong. I confess, I could and should have looked it up. Nearly every published source covering these pre-22 June 1941 Aufkl.Gr. Ob.d.L. flights mentions two or three incidents over Ukraine. I should have re-read these and checked the dates, in full knowledge that you would be reading this thread and would quickly bring any errors to our attention. How fulfilling. Thank you again, Mirek.

L.

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Larry you are welcome, :-)

In the literature you can find information about these events (2-3 cases or more?), but no specific hard evidence. So far, this is one well-known and described a case from both sides. Others are at the moment in the phase of myths and fairy tales...

regards,

mw

BTW

First time I had written about this case in 2004 in Polish magazine Militaria i Fakty no 2(23)/2004, "Czerwony Blizkrieg w lipcu 1941 r./ The Red Blizkrieg in July 1941". p. 33.

I know that Polish language is know for Polish people, :-)

[Col Bruggy]

Larry,

Might I suggest you go back and consult chapter 8, in Kahn's "Hitler's Spies". (p.250), and check his sources in the notes (p.601).

Col.

[Larry deZeng]

Originally Posted by Col Bruggy

Larry,

Might I suggest you go back and consult chapter 8, in Kahn's "Hitler's Spies". (p.250), and check his sources in the notes (p.601).

Col.

I already checked Kahn and his footnotes (see my previous posts in this thread) and put the book back in the box in the garage. Like you, I just came here to help the thread's originator, Karoband (Jim). I think the flow of information developed quite well and now amounts to most of what is known about these high-altitude reconnaissance flights deep into the USSR. So I'm outta here.

L.

[researcher111]

Larry Kommando Rowehl started recon PR flights over Russia back in 1939
I therefore can't imagine that the first Moscow shots were taken as late as
1941, though I did not deal with this subject and can't tell it for sure.

[Col Bruggy]

Adios Larry,

For the benefit of those who don't have access to Kahn's Hitler's Spies, I quote (p.450):

"The flights increased in pace, in the three weeks between 27 March and 18 April (1941), the Russians detected an average of more than three a day. On 4 April, for example, they spotted a plane at 23,000 feet that violated the border near Prezemysl at 1:20 p.m., and penetrated 75 miles into Russian-occupied territory before flying back to Germany at 1:50 p.m.. They had no illusions as to what the flights were for. In one plane, which landed near Rovno on 15 April, they found a camera, some rolls of exposed film, and a map of the Soviet Union. This may have been the plane that Rowehl sent to photograph Sverdlovsk, the leading industrial city of the Urals, almost a 3,000-mile round trip from Kirkenes in Northern Norway, and that never came back. But the Russians merely registered a protest. Even when their fighters forced down a Ju 86 that had lost altitude due to motor damage early in June, recovering the camera and all its pictures, no serious repercussions ensued."

Not so sure about the "early June", loss. But the 15th April, 1941 loss, is plain to see.

Larry, like you, I have nothing more to say on the matter.

Col.

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

In Kahn's Hitler's Spies, there is an error, twice is mentioned the same incident (15 April and early June 1941). The next one had never happend!

Soviets's sources can confirme only this first one.

regards,
mw

"The flights increased in pace, in the three weeks between 27 March and 18 April (1941), the Russians detected an average of more than three a day. On 4 April, for example, they spotted a plane at 23,000 feet that violated the border near Prezemysl at 1:20 p.m., and penetrated 75 miles into Russian-occupied territory before flying back to Germany at 1:50 p.m.. They had no illusions as to what the flights were for. In one plane, which landed near Rovno on 15 April, they found a camera, some rolls of exposed film, and a map of the Soviet Union. This may have been the plane that Rowehl sent to photograph Sverdlovsk, the leading industrial city of the Urals, almost a 3,000-mile round trip from Kirkenes in Northern Norway, and that never came back. But the Russians merely registered a protest. Even when their fighters forced down a Ju 86 that had lost altitude due to motor damage early in June, recovering the camera and all its pictures, no serious repercussions ensued."

[Snautzer]

picture of Noell can be found here: https://www.delcampe.net/nl/verzamel...344653909.html