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  #11  
Old 15th May 2010, 23:54
Many Souffan Many Souffan is offline
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Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet

Hello Ian.

I agree with you only for the Battle P2195, It is proved also by English Archives: Aircraft casualties AIR35/196 at the date of 14th may 1940. the only one Battle described is the P2195.

The timing given by Arnaud Gillet is wrong. The take off of the 76 Wing ( 12, 142, 226) was 3 PM and as I will explain in my article, S/L Hobler received from a personal call from a high officer to take off early than 3 PM after he learned the failure of the mission of the French Bombers.
And Hobler, himself, said he took off 20 minutes before 3 PM with another Battle. 142 sqn was the first off all Battle squadrons to take off this afternoon of 14 may.

The GC III/7 took off at 0.25 PM for a free chase in Zone, not to protect the French bombers in their mission, the base of the III/7 was in fact bombed the 12 & the 13 may and their mission( in low altitude) this 14th may was to prevent a new attack of the German bombers. It was for the same reason that the GC I/3 with their new Dewoitine d520, was also in free chase but in high altitude.

Another thing about these French pilots of III/7 They knew very well the Battle, they shared the base of Mourmelon during the fall 1939 with 88 Sqn equiped with Battle.

The last thing, I would like to say, to understand the events, you must put in perspective what happen on earth with the Panzer Divisionen, very important, because the luftwaffe units of Hs 126 were attached to these Panzer Dv (1, 2 and 10) and all they did during these times were written in the diaries of the Heer.

And you will see that the French claims and the German losses ahave the same hour, the same minute and the same place for the 2 first losses of Hs 126.

Now, I know, that I will nevermore trust the work of Arnaud Gillet. he have written in his last book that the fourth battle was in fact a French medium bomber of GB I/12 n°48 before to explode a witness saw 2 parachutes. One of the 2 parachutes was Henry Lebeaupin. I have his account.

1/ the take off of the bomber was the morning,
2/ the bomber was shot down by Messerschmitt 109

As he has written to his parents from the stalag. When he go down slowly to the earth he was surrounded by the messerschmitt 109, wounded, he reached the earth among the panzer, he rememberered he was put on a panzer with others French prisoners, and went to Chéhéry, he had to answer some questions, after he went to the hospital of trier, and after a stalag...

after that how to believe this author who write this conclusion:
" Regarding the archives of III/7 & I/12 groupes, it is now public knowledge that the account concerning this account is far from the truth..."

It is easy to say it is a good work if you don't know that the hours were changed to give a good proof for the concordance of the facts, but unfortunatly the approach of the facts are not in this book from an historian. or maybe a mystic historian.

I will publish all the proofs and you will think it was more terrible than you could imagined.

I feel more sad than happy to have written above...
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  #12  
Old 16th May 2010, 11:28
G-ASEA G-ASEA is offline
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Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet

Here's another photo of the same Battle as on page 364 of (T&N) . I didnt know which Battle it was.

Dave
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  #13  
Old 17th May 2010, 18:56
Bernard Bernard is offline
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Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet

Good evening,

Please Ian could you let me know more about this No 142 Squadron ORB last version. As far as I know there is no No 142 Squadron ORB available before 1941.

G-ASEA, thanks for you photograph. Obviously the same Fairey Batlle as the one shown in Peter's book, and obviously no grave.

I am myself searching the history of the RAF in the Battle of France.For sure a hard work ( destruction of documents, confusion, numerous movements, etc...). I am convinced that Many Souffan is right, that these
Battles and this Leo 451 were not shot down by the pilots of GC III/7. It sounds like a Holywwod story board and the demonstration is weak and lacks of acceptable arguments and evidence.History is not to be interpreted by imagination but demonstrated by documents and strong evidence.

I have read Mr Gillet " Fury " and I am astonished that he could ever think that this work was worth publishing.

I am looking forward to read Many's conclusions. I am sure that he will demonstrate his position in a real historical method.

Very best regards.

Bernard.
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  #14  
Old 18th May 2010, 09:07
Many Souffan Many Souffan is offline
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Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet

Bonjour à tous.
(Good morning to all)

Thank you G-ASEA for the photograph

Thank you Bernard for your encouragements, I will try my best.

Officially my article will be published in Avions n° 177 issue of august/September. But in Avions n°176 issue of June/July it will possible to read my little article about Jean Demozay, one of the greatest French pilot of WWII, it will be a foretaste of his bio I Will publish at the end of year....

Ian, The photograph page 364 of Peter's book is "probably" not the "kite" of Hobler. Read what he said about this particular landing of this 14th may 1940. "This went on as we came down towards the two trees and I managed somehow to put the nose of the aircraft somewhere in the middle of them. As we hit, the trees folded the wings back, stopping our descent and averting what would have been a bald, flat-out crash. so we slithered onto the ground in that manner, very undignified, with the Germans not very far away and heading toward us like mad.... But I agree with you as I have written in my previous post it is really the P2195 he flew and not P2246


Last thing, I would like to know if someone have heard or maybe see about the: Midland Aircraft Recovery Group ?????

Have a nice day for all.
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  #15  
Old 18th May 2010, 10:23
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Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet

Bernard,

You will find the No.142 Squadron ORB from September 1939 microfilmed at NA(PRO) Kew in AIR27/972. Thank you for your opinion on 'Fury' and good luck with your own research into the RAF in the Battle of France.

Ian,

The point about the incorrect photo caption in my Battle of France Then & Now is well made. It was the only view of that aircraft available to us at the time, and a simple error to make, though closer examination should have revealed the truth of the matter. However, since publication some six views of the crash site at Artaise have surfaced none of which allow me to identify the serial number with any certainty. So please help me understand how you are able to state that it is 'definitely' P2195. A PM will do if you prefer.

Many,

Thank you for your comments. As you can see, there is still considerable interest in resolving (as far as possible) the events of that afternoon so your account is eagerly awaited.

No.76 Wing aircraft were first off that afternoon because they were first to receive attack orders from HQ AASF (14.15 hours). Three half-sections (i.e. two aircraft apiece) were tasked to attack Bridge 1 (Wadelincourt), Bridge 3 (Douzy), and Bridge 5 (Mouzon) at 15.00 hours. Two more half-sections were to attack Bridge 2 (NW of Remilly-Aillicourt) and Bridge 4 (N of Villers-devant-Mouzon) ten minutes later with five further aircraft being sent against roads in the area. This is consistent with HOBLER's account that he took-off with one other aircraft. Attack orders to No.71 Wing came from HQ AASF at 14.20 hours and those for No.75 Wing followed at 14.40 hours. (HQ AASF ORB NA(PRO) AIR24/21).
  #16  
Old 18th May 2010, 18:31
Iain Torrance Iain Torrance is offline
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Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet

Hello Many & Bernard

Thanks for your comments.

Firstly on whether P2195 at Artaise is Hobler’s plane.

From photographs (a Srl. No. visible, others with village in background) and local French records (via Arnaud) stating P2195, it is certain for me that P2195 is the wreck at Artaise and it is indeed is the same as the wreck at p364 of Peter’s book.

I stated P2195 was ‘almost certainly’ that of Hobler as I was aware of the quote now cited by Many (from ‘Valiant Wings’) referring to the wings being folded back. However it is burnt-out (consistent with Hobler’s burns), contemporary photos show trees at the top of the hill behind the wreck, it certainly appears to have slithered down the hill (note the severe bending back of the props), and P2195 was recorded as lost that day. Indeed I have seen a German photo captioned ‘17.5 Artaise’.

Also there is another problem; if it is not Hobler’s plane, what other burnt out 142 Squ wreck – located in enemy territory as at 14 May - is proposed in the alternative to P2195 as being that of Hobler? And who flew P2195, if not Hobler?

Hence, on balance, I’d still go with P2195 confirmed at Artaise being ‘almost certainly’ the Hobler plane (my only reservation is the account of wings folded back).

Secondly on Timings.

In respect of the 142 ORB. I’ve not seen the ‘draft’ referred to by Arnaud (stated as being held by the Midland Aircraft Recovery Group) but there is a 142 Squ ORB for May and June 1940 at the PRO (AIR 27/972) and I have a copy to hand as I type. The timing in that ORB for the ‘Hobler operation’ is given as 13.30, the same time as per draft ORB via Arnaud (not a different time as I previously thought). I would take 13.30 as a reported ‘planes up’ time but it is much earlier than both the Hobler account and the timing of the orders being issued.

However the 142 Squ ORB document at the PRO needs to be treated with great care. It was written after the return to England. In Fly Past (Jan & Feb 1990) it is stated it was written by Sgt Rudd in early October 1940, almost four months after the return from France. I now quote in full, from that publication, the letter from Rudd to W/C Saddler dd 11 Oct 1940

Sir

I submit for your approval, prior to typing, this record of the Squadron’s work in France. It has been compiled to a small extent from matters available in the Operational Files, partly from private sources, but largely from memory. Owing to the discrepancies of dates and times, frequent time lapses and oft-times hazy or only partial recollection induced by the rapid sequence of events, and in spite of the check and cross-check of information thus gleaned, errors no doubt exist.

Nevertheless, these I believe to be few and of inconsequential moment in so far as they do not greatly affect the facts.

Although I feel sure all sources of information are now exhausted, if anyone can offer corrections to or further matter for this record, then I will gladly co-operate to achieve a more satisfying degree of completeness.

Hence, hardly a definitive contemporary record !!! I presume ‘private sources’ in this context would be mainly referring to aircrew Log Books. I have found Log Books to be reliable docs, but we can not know the sources of individual data in the ORB. It is worth mentioning that 103 Squ also wrote up their ORB after returning from France. For context this is the introduction to the 103 Squadron ORB:

The following summary of operations has been compiled from pilots log books and from memory, since the original squadron records were lost in the final evacuation of the squadron from France. Every care has been taken to obtain accuracy, but the authenticity of the detail cannot be guaranteed.

I would speculate the writing up of the records may have had something to do with the delayed AASF gallantry awards in November. In any event the weight of evidence points towards to the 13.30 timing being incorrect.

I certainly continue to keep an open mind on these events and very much look forward to Many’s version. The records for the Battle of France are fragmented and sometimes conflicting. It remains a constant challenge for us all to not jump to conclusions !

Hope these (somewhat long) comments help.

Kind regards to all

Iain
  #17  
Old 19th May 2010, 10:12
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Peter Cornwell Peter Cornwell is offline
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Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Torrance View Post
From photographs (a Srl. No. visible, others with village in background) and local French records (via Arnaud) stating P2195, it is certain for me that P2195 is the wreck at Artaise and it is indeed is the same as the wreck at p364 of Peter’s book.
Please advise me where I might see a photo showing P2195 on the wreck at Artaise. I don't dispute it, I merely haven't yet seen any clear evidence of the fact. Many thanks.
  #18  
Old 20th May 2010, 19:20
Iain Torrance Iain Torrance is offline
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Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet

Peter

I have images which confirm. Pleased you don’t dispute it and, of course, I’m happy to show you the clear evidence. Send me a PM note of your email address and I’ll forward this evidence to you.

In the same spirit I would interested in seeing/understanding the evidence for some of the plane losses detailed in Battle of France T&N; doubtless we can do that outside this forum.

Kind regards

Iain
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Old 20th May 2010, 19:40
Bernard Bernard is offline
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Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet

Good evening Iain,

I feel confused about your last post wich I feel ( I may be too sensitiive ) is against the spirit of this forum. As you can see, the posts about this topic have been read quite a lot of times by I suppose many members. And now as you seem to be able to show a clear evidence, you intend to send it only by PM to Peter........
What about us ( I mean other members of this so precious and rich forum ). Aren't we worth to know.
Strange....

Bernard.
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  #20  
Old 23rd May 2010, 09:51
Iain Torrance Iain Torrance is offline
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Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet

Bernard

Strangely Sensitive indeed

For me the common currency (Spirit?) of this forum should be courtesy and a focus on facts.

If you review my posts on this forum that is what I have sought to do.

The facts are - Peter was the only member asked for 'the evidence', he suggested private message, and I have no idea how to upload an annotated word file to a post.

I suggest that next time you have such an issue you post a more polite message, having first taken the truble to get the facts.

Lastly, more generally, I have found some of the posts on this thread more personal and emotional than necessary. Emotions get in the way of good judgement, so this member at least would prefer more moderation in the tone of the posts.

Kind regards

Iain
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