Luftwaffe Escape and Evasion

[RT]

At last when the story come from the mouth of the horse....all is questionnable

Don't forget reinhardt Heydrich who was "escaped"

remi

[George Hopp]

look e.g. here http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/beisfjord.html
"Another Stuka made a forced landing at Beisfjord the same day. A5+DK of 2.StG 1 was shot down by a Hurricane of 46 Sqdn.RAF (Sgt.Taylor). The Stuka crew(Ltn.KlausKübel) was taken prisoner by Polish troops and shot dead shortly after."

In Normandy, where the Poles and Canadians fought side-by-side, the Poles would simply march German PoWs in front of a table, behind which an officer sat, declare them war criminals and shoot them. End of story. This was watched by a friend of mine in the Canadian Army.

All the best,
George

[Sylvester Stadler]

[quote=Franek Grabowski;60042]

Originally Posted by Sylvester Stadler

But Stahlschmidt was killed before publishing the book, so he could not provide the authors with the account. I recall reading, that he cooperated with some war correspondents or journals, but cannot say if it is true.

What difference does it make whether Stahlschmidt gave his report to a reporter or to his intelligence officer? His account is either true or false, or partly true and partly false. Evidently, Christopher Shores in his book, Fighters over the Desert, on pages 96-97, considers the account as accurate.

Here is what Shores has to say: "Suddenly his engine cut during a pass, and he force-landed, ramming a truck. He was hauled from his cockpit by troops who turned out to be members of the Polish Brigade. The angry Poles beat him with rifle butts, and kicked him, ripping off his decorations, and making run the gauntlet of the column. He was then examined and interrogated by a Polish and a South African officer, before being sent to another camp. After midnight he managed to escape, and walked about five miles to the spot where he had originally crashed, finding there a German outpost which returned him to his unit without more ado, his return causing great jubilation. A few days later he returned to Germany on leave with Lt. Marseille."

It is certainly possible that Stahlschmidt was in no condition to return to a flight status with the injuries sustained from the treatment of the hands of the Polish soldiers. Gabrowski lives in a fantasy world where the Poles can do no wrong. The killing of thousands of German civilians in the first days of the war (September 1939) by Polish soldiers and civilians is evidence that the Poles could commit war atrocities (see the works of Alfred-Maurice de Zayas). Gabrowski presents no evidence that the beatings of Stahlschmidt did not take place, only presenting an un-named "witness" who was allegedly there. What we have here is the statement of a participant (Stahlschmidt) and no other participant has ever come forward to testify as to what he saw or did.

[Franek Grabowski]

George
Your story does not make sense. The desk suggests it was a court, thus a paperwork should exist, so it must have been known and accepted by Allied command. It is unlikely if not impossible. Most of PoWs execution were on the spot, in the heat of combat, just like a well known execution at Dachau performed by GIs. There is still standing question, where, when, and where are the bodies. And I am curious if your friend mentioned any executions by Canadians?

Sylvester
The question is very simple - what is the origin of Stahlschmidt's account. Christopher Shores is no God and has no monopoly on truth, and neither provides answer for the question nor verify it with other sources. Your question on what is the difference between propaganda account and a report is rather naive to say the least. By the nature, propaganda distorts the reality either to support own morale or to scare people to increase their efficiency. Every propaganda account, and German and Soviet in particular are highly suspicious and should be always verified against other sources.
Your note about Stahlschmidt being not fit to fly and send to Germany is only a supposition of yours and not based on any grounds. The same about your 'evidence' of crimes against German civilian population. The trick is that the German civilian population was armed, and in Bydgoszcz/Bromberg it attacked Polish troops inflicting serious losses. Also, in parallel, there were several brute attacks on Polish civilian population on the area. There are reports of numerous German agents smuggled to Poland and photographs of their equipment, so you cannot claim it is a Polish invention. You also fail to note numerous crimes committed by the German troops, in particular infamous 4 Panzer Division, which in eagerness even shot their own.
One more thing that makes the difference between Germans and Allies. Those were decisions on the highest levels of German government to mistreat Allied airmen, and not only some trigger happy soldiers, who could act in some emotion.

[odybvig]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Those were decisions on the highest levels of German government to mistreat Allied airmen, and not only some trigger happy soldiers, who could act in some emotion.

Can you document this ?

Best from Norway
Olve Dybvig

[Csaba B. Stenge]

There were some evasives and escapes by Hungarian crewmembers as well. Two famous aces swam the Dniepr as well to reach the German lines in September and October, 1943, respectively (György Debrődy was shot down behind Soviet lines on 25 September, 1943 then Lajos Tóth on 3 October, 1943)

[David Brown]

[quote=Franek Grabowski;60159]George
Your story does not make sense. The desk suggests it was a court, thus a paperwork should exist, so it must have been known and accepted by Allied command.

I believe George is referring to a "kangeroo-court". It is rare for such a court to document and have regard for the law since it acts on its own authority.

[quote=Franek Grabowski;60159]George
It is unlikely if not impossible.

Henry Fielding said it best about people who are prone to using absolutes. "Impossible - a word which in common conversation, is often used to signify not only the impropable, but often what is really very likely, and sometimes what hath certainly happened; an hyperbolical violence like that which is so frequently offered to the words infinite and eternal; by the former of which it is usual to express a distance of half a yard (or metre), and by the latter a duration of five minutes".

[George Hopp]

George
Your story does not make sense. The desk suggests it was a court, thus a paperwork should exist, so it must have been known and accepted by Allied command. It is unlikely if not impossible. Most of PoWs execution were on the spot, in the heat of combat, just like a well known execution at Dachau performed by GIs. There is still standing question, where, when, and where are the bodies. And I am curious if your friend mentioned any executions by Canadians?

Since when does murder have to make sense? The German PoWs were marched up before an officer behind a desk, labelled war criminals and then marched off and shot. No one bothered to interfere because they didn't much care for the Germans either, and the Poles were fanatical about this. Hey, when the "good guys" carry out war crimes, the bodies disappear -- just more of Normandy's rich farm land.

[RT]

Killing of prisoners, is something that today is well accepted, at least from one side, the praised movie of Spielberg upon Normandy hv minutes long of prisoners killing, it looks that makes very funny the killers

rémi

[pelagonia]

As far as the Italian front in 1944-45 is concerned, I remember reading that Poles were particularly hated by German parachutists, since it was well known they never took prisoners. Now I do not know if all these stories about trigger-happy Poles are true or not, but considering what Germans did to Poland, I think such a behaviour would be quite understandable.