E.Rudorffer early war claims question

[Evgeny Velichko]

Hi gents!

A little strange question from me (zertorer-interested guy), but:

Were ever 40-41 claims of Rudorffer verified (checked)? I've started to check his eastern claims, and interested to compare overclaim rate when he was with JG2 in France.

14/05/1940 Fw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Curtiss SW Les Sees la Gresn: 2000m 15.08
17/05/1940 Fw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 LeO 451 La Caponne 13.28
19/05/1940 Fw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Morane 406 E. Guise 7.3
25/05/1940 Fw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Blenheim St. Quentin 20.35
26/05/1940 Fw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Spitfire NW Calais: 2500m 9.45
26/05/1940 Fw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Spitfire NW Calais 9.47
06/06/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Martin 167 N. Roye 20.45
06/06/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 LeO 451 N. Roye: 1500m 20.5
06/06/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Curtiss N. Soissons 13.10 Western Front

11/08/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Spitfire SE Portland: 7000m 11.49 Western Front
11/08/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Hurricane E. Weymouth 11.38 Western Front
31/08/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Hurricane Dover 9.4 Western Front
01/09/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Spitfire Dover 12.45 Western Front
02/09/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Hurricane Faversham 18.2 Western Front
04/09/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Hurricane Dover 9.58 Western Front
07/09/1940 Fw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Hurricane Themesmündung 18.3 Western Front
07/09/1940 Fw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Spitfire Themesmündung 18.4 Western Front
07/09/1940 Fw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Spitfire Themesmündung 18.43 Western Front
10/10/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Spitfire Portland 16.2 Western Front

21/04/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Blenheim 30km N. Jersey 15.03 Western Front
07/07/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer Stab II. JG 2 Spitfire E. Boulogne 15.35 Western Front
07/07/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer Stab II. JG 2 Spitfire E. Boulogne 15.4 Western Front
09/07/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer Stab II. JG 2 Hurricane NW St. Omer 13.45 Western Front
09/07/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer Stab II. JG 2 Spitfire SW St. Omer 13.4 Western Front
10/07/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer Stab II. JG 2 Spitfire S. Desvres 12.3 Western Front
11/07/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer Stab II. JG 2 Spitfire N. Boulogne 15 Western Front
19/07/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire SE Calais 14.25 Western Front
23/07/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire W. Calais 13.18 Western Front
05/08/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire N. Gravelines 10.05 Western Front
05/08/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire Dünkirchen 19.05 Western Front
10/08/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Hurricane NE Calais 14.15 Western Front
19/08/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire Dover 12.15 Western Front
19/08/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire Dover 11.59 Western Front
19/08/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire Dover 12.06 Western Front
21/08/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire Calais 15.1 Western Front
20/09/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire NE Dieppe 16.55 Western Front
21/09/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire Ärmelkanal 17.05 Western Front
21/09/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire Ärmelkanal 16.55 Western Front
21/09/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire Ärmelkanal 16.5 Western Front
27/09/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire Le Touquet 15.4 Western Front
08/12/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Hurricane W. Boulogne 12.55 Western Front
03/06/1942 Oblt. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire N. Le Havre 16.35 Western Front
03/06/1942 Oblt. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire N. Le Havre 16.38 Western Front
05/06/1942 Oblt. Erich Rudorffer 5 JG 2 Spitfire N. Le Havre 15.46 Western Front
19/08/1942 Oblt. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire N. Dieppe 16.52 Western Front
19/08/1942 Oblt. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire N. Dieppe 16.53 Western Front

[Pieter H]

Hi Evgeny,

Interesting question.
Of your long list of claims I can only talk about the first three, but then indeed some questions as to claim reliability (of the entire I./JG2) come up.

14-5 20.00
4 Moranes claimed by 1./JG2 (Machold, Bertram, Täscher) and one Hawk by Rudolffer. Interestingly, this is the only Luftwaffe claim on this day I have not been able to match to any allied loss. Neither French nor British. I don't have any indication of allied losses around 20.00 GT (19.00 local) on the axis Cambrai-Bouillon where JG2 claimed.

17-5 13.25
4 Leo451 claimed by 2./JG2 (Rudorffer, Keil, Hoffmann, Hermes).
Indeed there was the interception of a flight of Leo451's of GB I/31, who lost 3 aircraft. However, French stories confirm interception by Bf110's too, so one of the three Leo's is most probably downed by a 4./ZG76 Bf110. That leaves two actual losses vs. 4 claims.

19-5 07.30
5 Moranes claimed by 2./JG2 (Rudorffer, Hoffmann, Hermes, Mund, Leipelt). This was almost certainly the fight with 15 Moranes of GC III/1 and GC II/2, but none of these was lost. The French pilots stated they fought against 30 Bf109's, which suggests the entire I./JG2. If that is the case, then interesting to see only 2./JG2 claimed, statistically not very likely.

All later days I have not analyzed, but at least these first three ones don't give a high level of confidence in the future claims of 2./JG2 and/or Fw Rudorffer. 14 aircraft claimed, vs. 2 actual losses. That is 600% over-claiming!

Regards, Pieter

[Evgeny Velichko]

Thx Pieter!

I've already found some very interesting days of Rudorffer over Eastern Front with outch overclaiming... And I have some info about his African victories... And I see now, roots are in 1940... Well

I suggest high overclaim during BoB, but interesting - what was with his claims a bit later, during 41 and 42 (Dieppe)?

[Nokose]

From the book by Peter D. Cornwell "The Battle Of France Then And Now"
17May40 GB I/31 LeO 451 crashed at Le-Grand-Pre St. Lt. A. Rigourd
25May40 GBA II/54 Breguet (13) W. of Roye Sgt. Badel (WIA)
26May40 19 Sqd, Hornchurch Spitfire N3200 W. of Calais S/L G.D. Stephenson (POW)
06Jun40 GB I/62 Martin 167F (75) damaged N. of Roye Sgt Bontemps (WIA)
06Jun40 GC II/5 Curtiss H-75 (56) severly damaged & written off after forced landing Sgt. J. Janeba.
All of these are listed "Possibly".

[Rob Romero]

Evegny -would you be willing to share your Ostfront findings on Ruddorfer?

Thanks,

Rob Romero

[Evgeny Velichko]

Rob - of cource yes, When I'll finish it

I have also some questions about some of his Tunisian claims, but I'll ask about them a bit later. Some claims clear for me, some - not.

[John Beaman]

Evgeny:

I will strongly echo Rob's suggestion that you share your findings regarding Rudorffer's claims. This subject has come up many times on this and other boards.

[Evgeny Velichko]

John - question near Rudorffers actions:

I search III./SG3 losses on 05/09/1944. There was a huge dogfight around Tartu. II./JG54 and III./SG3 claimed hardly, but seems without own losses (at least II./JG54). What for III./SG3?

[Nokose]

11Aug40: Possibly one of the 4 Hurricane I of the 238 Sqn shot down off Weymouth at 10:40. The Spitfire could be a mis-Id but a lot of claims in that area by JG2, 27 and 53.

[John Beaman]

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko

John - question near Rudorffers actions:

I search III./SG3 losses on 05/09/1944. There was a huge dogfight around Tartu. II./JG54 and III./SG3 claimed hardly, but seems without own losses (at least II./JG54). What for III./SG3?

Well, I'm not sure if you mean May 9, 1944 or 5-Sep-1944, but regardless, I have no losses for III./SG 3 Fw 190s in either period. Sources indicate they switched from Stukas to 190s in the spring of 1944, but the first losses I have are in January '45.