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  #11  
Old 11th January 2019, 20:32
Karoband Karoband is offline
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Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg

David,

Is that a red "3" on the nose door? and does the history of Me 262 A-2a 110662 fit?

Jim
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  #12  
Old 12th January 2019, 02:11
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David E. Brown David E. Brown is offline
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Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg

Hi Jim,

No to the Werknummer; likely yes for the number 3 that it is red.

Regarding the wappen, it is not visible in the presented image. It is in another.

David
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  #13  
Old 12th January 2019, 02:35
Karoband Karoband is offline
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Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg

Hi David,

The reason I ask is that I noticed a document on page 146 of Brown et al., Messerschmitt Me 262 Production & Arado Ar 234 Final Operations. (2012) that reads in part:

"(Rote) 3 (1o) 11o662 …

1. Ausbidungs-Kommando II./KG(J) 54 …

Oblt. Kornagel was killed in "Red 1" as Ausbildung-Kommando II./KG(J) 54 was departing on 28th April 1945; the remaining aircraft, i.e. "Red 2" and "Red 3" flew over to Munchen-Riem the following day."

I wondered whether the "(1o)" referred to its previous V-kenn.

Also I found in deZeng and Stankey:

"SPADIUT, Dr. Herbert … 29.04.45 Hptm., II./KG(J) 54 lost Me 262 (B3+Red2) shot up by strafers vic Erding. 30.04.45 flew his last mission in the Prague-Muenchen area [sic]…

PAUKNER, ? , 29.04.45 Lt., II./KG(J) 54 lost Me 262 A-1 (B3+Red4) [sic] shot up by strafers at Erding."

Erding is about 15 km. from Moosburg.

Jim
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  #14  
Old 12th January 2019, 04:23
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David E. Brown David E. Brown is offline
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Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg

Hi Jim,

My previous brief missive was from a church hall and thus not accessible to my files (and memory for that matter...). Thanks for the reminder. I have lots of projects and files on the go (Luftwaffe and Panzerwaffe) keeping track becomes a challenge.

For some background, I have been studying this aircraft for 30 years and came back to it from time to time. Bit by bit more information and insights were revealed as photos appear, though none crisp and sharp. And documentary material, well, scraps at best. Radtke (1990) mentions four aircraft II./KG(J) 54 (Reds 1-4) and that they were lost, one to a crash landing at Prag-Rusin (ro.1), and the remaining three destroyed by Allied fighter-bomber attacks at Fürstenfeldbuck (ro.3), and Erding (ro.2 and ro.4). Three unidentified machines appear in the listing on page 271 dated 4 April but assigned to I. Gruppe. and two at Innsbruck on 8 May. No source documents are noted but there must have been some source.

The document in the JaPo book (2012) has much greater detail on these machines. Suffice to say that there remains some data gaps. And as I have written in the past (prior to the book's writing and publication), its physical attributes put "10 / 3" as an A-2a in the mid-1105xx to 1106xx production group. This document identifies that aircraft as 110662. Yet it took some time to get a clear view to confirm without a doubt the presence of the '10', whereas the '3' was visible in the four o'clock view in Jim Crow's photo from the mid 1980s (its first known image, and incorrectly identified as being at Herzogenaurach).

For the record, until the document's discovery, I had it narrowed down to 110662, 110665, and 110668 per Dan O'Connell's and Radtke's listings. The first werknummer was the most promising, but still... A colleague of mine and I recently had access to the original of the recent side view photo and except for the last digit, the remainder were just readable. But most importantly, the '10' was at last clearly seen - that clinched it for certain.

So, while hedging my interpretation over the years, based on all these data and the new image, the machine can be identified as 110662.

Cheers,

David
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  #15  
Old 12th January 2019, 08:44
Karoband Karoband is offline
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Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg

Ah, thank you, David.

Now to figure out who was the pilot.

Thanks again,

Jim
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  #16  
Old 12th January 2019, 16:40
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David E. Brown David E. Brown is offline
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Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg

Hi Jim,

Thank you for keeping this thread alive. I appreciate our correspondence, and your interest and insights on these colourful birds.

I must say that the new frontal view of the aircraft was a God-send. The '3' was clear on the nose wheel door, and I was delighted to see the yellow and white painted nose that added even more confirmation this was a KG(J) 54 kite. As stated, in the earlier photos the '3' could be seen but not clearly, and the '10' was frustrating hard to discern. At first it looked like the '1' was a fuel stain.

Nevertheless, all the pieces have fallen into place. I guess two questions remain: who was its pilot, and where did the other machine end up? More fun...!

All the best,

David

PS: I forgot to mention I am wrapping up research on Steinhoff's last aircraft and it will be published through Andrew and Morton's website. Might be time to step back from Me 262s and look at other things piling up on the desk (and finish a tank kit for the local show in April!).
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Last edited by David E. Brown; 12th January 2019 at 16:42. Reason: The PS.
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  #17  
Old 12th January 2019, 21:04
Karoband Karoband is offline
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Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg

Hi David,

I look forward to seeing your article on Steinhoff's bird. Your insights have always been thoughtful and carefully presented.

I wish you well in whatever endeavours you choose.

Jim
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  #18  
Old 12th January 2019, 22:51
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David E. Brown David E. Brown is offline
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Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg

Thanks Jim,

The collaborative spirit exhibited by members of this discussion board is exemplary, and collectively we have generated much new knowledge and information on the Luftwaffe.

Best,

David
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  #19  
Old 13th January 2019, 14:32
Rémi Baudru Rémi Baudru is offline
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Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg / thanks

and I thanks you two for sharing your knowledge with all the members interested by your answers.
Best Regards.
Rémi Baudru
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  #20  
Old 15th January 2019, 00:38
cobrahistorian cobrahistorian is offline
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Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg

All,

David and I have been going over this airplane from nose to tail for a few weeks now. We've confirmed it is W. Nr. 110662, both through documentary and photographic evidence. I have the original photo that Franck posted above. Scanned at 4800dpi, we were able to clearly see 11066, and the last digit was either a 2 or an 8. Documentary evidence showed it was a 2. The KG(j)54 emblem is painted over as well, but not visible in that photo. We have three shots of this airplane, from the front, 1/4 front and direct profile. It is all pretty plain to see when comparing all three photos.

Scanned at 4800dpi, the "10" is plainly visible, in fact moreso than the Red 3.

This machine was captured by the 398th AAA AW Bn and there are two photos of it on the 398th webpage: http://www.14thad.org/398thaaa/index.cfm
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