Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #231  
Old 11th January 2019, 15:22
Dan History Dan History is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 109
Dan History is on a distinguished road
Re: German docs in TSAMO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry deZeng View Post
I've never seen even a hint that this transfer was ever carried out. I think we need some more information to corroborate this one.
That's a valuable observation, Larry. In the loss records, there is no sign of any Ju 86 losses or accidents in the Crimea at this time. So they flew four Ju 86s there and then thought better of the idea?

There is also the mystery of what unit the words "die Nachtflugschule 3 von Wiener Neustadt" refer to. I thought that Blindflugschule 3 could be it, but your excellent database places it at Prag-Rusin - "BFS 3 (Jun 42 – Oct 43) then FFS B 33 (Oct 43 – Mar 45)". The unit at Wiener Neustadt was "FFS C Wiener Neustadt (Sep 39 – Jan 40), FFS C 8 (Jan 40 –Oct 43) then FFS B 8 (Oct 43 – Sep 44)". A certain "1. Behelfsnachtjagdlehrgang" was also at Wiener Neustadt for a time in autumn 1942, which I assume would have been training bomber crews to fly as auxiliary night fighters on the Eastern front. So the possibility emerges that the proposed operational deployment of Nachtflugschule 3 was some kind of joint endeavour by BFS 3 and FFS C 8, which eventually took the form of a small number of Ju 88s operating as Nachtfluglehrgang 3.

Kind regards,

Dan
__________________
My research paper - How were German air force resources distributed between different fronts in the years 1941 to 1943 - http://www.ww2.dk/Luftwaffe Research.html
Reply With Quote
  #232  
Old 11th January 2019, 16:15
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,912
Larry deZeng is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: German docs in TSAMO

Dan H. -

KGr. z.b.V. 21 and 22 were the only two Transportgruppen to be equipped with the Ju 86 for use in Russia. Neither was ever based in North Caucasia or Crimea and both were disbanded on 20 January 1943. I believe they flew a few supply-dropping missions over N Cauc. and a couple of Ju 86s operated from Salsk in mid-January 1943, but that's it, AFIK. Nearly the entire fleet of Ju 86s in Russia was destroyed on the ground at Tatsinskaya on 24 December 1942, according to von Richthofen's diary.


KGr. z.b.V. 22
Kampfgruppe z.b.V. 22
(Unit Code: none)

Formation. (Nov 42)
Ordered to assemble and form at Zichenau (Ciechanów)/78 km NNW of Warsaw on 29 November 1942 and then proceed to Morosovskaya/202 km NE of Rostov to take part in the Stalingrad airlift operation. Consisted of a Gruppenstab and two Staffeln with a total of 14 Ju 86s temporarily taken from training schools and other units in Germany.1

South Russia. (Dec 42 - Jan 43)
Dec 42: plans changed shortly after formation and KGr. z.b.V. 22 was directed to Tatsinskaya instead of Morosovskaya, the two airfields being fairly close to each other.
12 Dec 42: operating from Tatsinskaya - Ju 86 (RB+NI) reported missing on a flight from Tatsinskaya to Stalingrad-Pitomnik and believed shot down, 100%, 3 MIA.
16 Dec 42: Ju 86 bombed on the ground at Fp. Stalingrad-Basargino, 100%.
16 Dec 42: Ju 86 (RD+RS) missing on a flight from Varbovka to Tatsinskaya, 100%, 4 MIA.
18-24 Dec 42: in the space of a week the Gruppe reported 14 Ju 86s destroyed and 6 more moderately to severely damaged, most of these victims of Russian air attacks on Tatsinskaya on 24 December, 2 KIA and 2 WIA.
27 Dec 42: Ju 86 destroyed on the ground by enemy fire at Fp. Kotelnikovo, 100%.
23 Jan 43: Ju 86 destroyed on the ground at Fp. Salsk to prevent capture by the approaching Russians.
26 Jan 43: Ju 86 crashed at Fp. Proskurov/W Ukraine due to engine trouble, 90%, 1 KIA and 2 WIA.
Jan 43: after being virtually wiped out the third week of December, aside from a couple of Ju 86s that survived and a couple of more that were unserviceable at Kotelnikovo and Salsk, the Gruppe was disbanded in January. The date of disbandment is unknown, but it was probably the same date KGr. z.b.V. 21 was ordered disbanded, 20 January 1943.


KGr. z.b.V. 21
Kampfgruppe z.b.V. 21
(Unit Code: none)

also as: KGr. z.b.V. S 21
KGr. 21
KGr. S 21

31 Jan 43: one of its last remaining Ju 86s was destroyed in a runway accident at Fp. Taganrog on this date, 100%.

L.
Reply With Quote
  #233  
Old 11th January 2019, 23:19
Dan History Dan History is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 109
Dan History is on a distinguished road
Re: German docs in TSAMO

Thank you very much for your summary of the short existence of KGr. z.b.V. 21 and 22, Larry. The place and date of formation, as well as the two Staffel organisation, were all hitherto unknown to me.

The losses on 24 December were caused primarily by an armoured raid by the Soviet 24th Tank Corps, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatsin...field#Overview

and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...tle_Saturn.png

I was going to suggest that the four aircraft of Nachtlehrgang 3 that were reported have arrived in the Crimea might have been sent to reinforce the existing Ju 86 transport units. Effectively, you got there first I will add here that the biography of Oberleutnant Aicher from your and Doug's great Career Summaries database would suggest that Nachtfluglehrgang 3 did function as a Ju 86 combat unit, though later in the war. 3./Einsatzgruppe BFS 2, the apparent successor unit of Nachtfluglehrgang 3, was a Ju 86 anti-partisan Staffel.

"AICHER, Egon. (DOB: 14.07.18 in Rosenheim). (W.B.K. München II). 1940 assigned to Lg.Kdo. III.26.07.41 trf to FFS C 8 as an instructor. 01.07.42 RDA as Oblt. 15.02.43 Oblt., Staka 2./Nachtfluglehrgang 4 (to 05.04.43). 20.05.43 trf to BFS 3 Prag-Rusin as an instructor. 11.06.43 Oblt., Staka Nachtfluglehrgang 3 (to 05.09.43). 06.09.43 Oblt., appt Staka 3./Einsatzgruppe BFS 2 (to 16.11.43). 17.11.43 Oblt., appt Staka 3./Eins.Gr.d.2.Fl.Schuldiv. (to 14.06.44). 15.06.44 trf to FFS B33 as an instructor. 03.08.44 trf to NJG 101 as an instructor. 11.10.44 trf to 3./NJG 101. 06/07.12.44 Oblt., 3./NJG 101. 04.45 MIA - in Czechoslovakia? Credited with one victory. [Name changed from AICHLER]"

Kind regards,

Dan
__________________
My research paper - How were German air force resources distributed between different fronts in the years 1941 to 1943 - http://www.ww2.dk/Luftwaffe Research.html
Reply With Quote
  #234  
Old 11th January 2019, 23:46
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,912
Larry deZeng is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: German docs in TSAMO

Thanks, Dan! In the meantime, I think I may have found it:

Nachtfluglehrgang 3

21 Jan 43: based in Crimea with 9(5) aircraft under Luftwaffengruppe Kaukasus. It was being used operationally over the Taman Peninsula on this date. No further information.
[Sources: J.S.Hayward - Stopped at Stalingrad: The Luftwaffe and Hitler’s Defeat in the East 1942-1943 (Lawrence (KS): Univ. Press of Kansas, 1998), pp.181 and 360.]

Although our friend (sic!) Professor Hayward makes no mention of Ju 86s, this almost certainly has to be the right unit. What do you think?

L.
Reply With Quote
  #235  
Old 12th January 2019, 12:41
Dan History Dan History is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 109
Dan History is on a distinguished road
Re: German docs in TSAMO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry deZeng View Post
Although our friend (sic!) Professor Hayward makes no mention of Ju 86s, this almost certainly has to be the right unit. What do you think?
You are welcome, Larry. I should have typed up the information in the links previously provided by Andrey - http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showpo...92&postcount=8

In short, Nachtfluglehrgang 3 did exist and did fly bomber missions from the Crimea. It has the four Ju 86 aircraft mentioned above, but it is not clear if these were involved in combat operations. The Ju 88s certainly were.

Addendum:
The Ju 86s were used in combat, see example below:

"Nachtrag zur Tagesabschlussmeldung vom 8.1.43.:
Lw. Stab. Krim: 2 Nachtstörangriffe mit 1 Ju 86 und 1 FW 58 auf Gelendshik."

http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...inspect/zoom/8

End of Addendum


"Nachtfluglehrgang 3 des Chef A. W. (Einsatzhafen Bagerowo) wird Lw. Stab Krim für die Durchführung von Nachtstörangriffen im Rahmen seiner Nachtflugausbildung einsatzmässig unterstellt.

...

Zur Verstärkung des Einsatzes des Nachtfluglehrganges 3 werden diesem durch Lfl. Kdo. 4, G. Qu. 5 Ju 88 A-4 zugewiesen. Abholung durch Nachtfluglehrgang."

http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...inspect/zoom/8

"Der Nachtfluglehrgang 3 ist

a) materiell: mit 5 Ju 88 (davon 2 Maschinen einsatzbereit, die Restl. noch in Reparatur) und 4 Ju 86.
b) personell: mit 6 Lehrbesatzungen (sowohl für Ju 86 als auch für Ju 88 ausgebildet) und 4 Schülerbesatzungen eingetroffen, die restlichen 4 Schülerbesatzungen sind in etwa 4 Wochen zu erwarten. Mithin sind höchstens 6 Maschinen täglich einsatzbereit."

http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...inspect/zoom/8
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/d...inspect/zoom/8

There is some similarity with the Chef-Ausbildungswesen (A.W.) – Gruppe (Einsatzkampfgruppe Ju 88) mentioned in a post from 2006 by byron, a member of this forum http://forum.balsi.de/index.php?topic=2933.0
and discussed by you and Doug on page 386 of the second volume of your Bomber Units reference work

Kind regards,

Dan
__________________
My research paper - How were German air force resources distributed between different fronts in the years 1941 to 1943 - http://www.ww2.dk/Luftwaffe Research.html

Last edited by Dan History; 12th January 2019 at 12:49. Reason: Added information concerning combat employment of Ju 86
Reply With Quote
  #236  
Old 12th January 2019, 16:03
egbert egbert is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: NRW, Germany
Posts: 86
egbert is on a distinguished road
Re: German docs in TSAMO

I am trying to trace my father's WW2 steps in the Flak business. When sifting through the thousands of newly published Flak-pages, I might oversee vital information. That's why I kindly ask you when researching the Flak-documents whether you come across the following units:
- 9./II./23 FlakRgt which belonged to 12th FlakDiv, time of interest: from Jan 1943 until Nov 1943
- Stab (HQ) 12th FlakDiv; time of interest Nov 1943 and
- Stab (HQ) LFKdo 6 from Nov 1943 until Aug 1944

Thanks for your attention!
Reply With Quote
  #237  
Old 12th January 2019, 16:44
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,912
Larry deZeng is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: German docs in TSAMO

II./Flak-Rgt. 23 (gem. mot.)


Formed 1 October 1935 at Rudolfstadt as a leichte (light) Flak-Abteilung with a Stab and three batteries (numbered 6. – 8.). Initially used the cover designation Fahr-Abteilung Rudolstadt. Disbanded on 31 March 1937. Re-established on 1 March 1939 at Komotau (Chomutov/c.83 km NW of Prague in Czechoslovakia) with a Stab and five batteries (numbered 6. – 10.).1
History
1935-37: during its first formation, it was assigned to Höh.Kdr.d.Flakartillerie in Luftkreis III (Senior Commander of Antiaircraft Artillery in Air District III).
Sep 39: campaign in south Poland under Koluft AOK 10.
May 40: following the campaign in Poland, returned to Germany and participated in the attack on France.
Nov – Dec 40: transferred from France to Hamburg to refit.
22 Jun 41: supported Panzergruppe 4 for the advance into Russia on the northern sector toward Pskov, Lake Ilmen and Leningrad, but its exact line of advance has not yet been determined. It probably redeployed with Panzergruppe 4 to the Roslavl area at the end of September for the attack on Moscow.
13 Jan 42: at Askerovo (near Yukhnov) under 12. Flak-Div.
22 May 42: at Pustaya or Puztaya (possibly in the Roslavl’ area) under 12. Flak-Div.
26 Oct 42: at Chiplayevo under Flak-Rgt. 134/12. Flak-Div.
26 Dec 42: at Dankino/NE of Smolensk under 18. Flak-Div.
Feb 43: Orel under Flak-Rgt. 101/12. Flak-Div.
Mar 43: Seshchinskaya airfield under Flak-Rgt. 21/12. Flak-Div.
Jun 43: Kromy/38 km SSW of Orel under Flak-Rgt. 21/12. Flak-Div.
Jul 43: Dobryn’/47 km SSW of Orel under Flak-Rgt. 134/12. Flak-Div.
Sep – Dec 43: not identified in front documents and believed to have withdrawn to a rear area to rest and refit.
1 Jan 44: Luniniec/E Poland under Flak-Rgt. 125/23. Flak-Div.
Feb 44: transferred from Central Russia, where it had been since October 1941, to North Russia and assigned to Flak-Rgt. 182/2. Flak-Div. in the Luga-Pskov area on the Leningrad front. Subordination unchanged through Jul 44. Supported AOK 18 units during the retreat from the Leningrad perimeter to defensive positions around Pskov, at the south end of Lake Peipus and southeastern Estonia through July.
Aug 44: briefly under Flak-Rgt. 41/6. Flak-Div.
Sep – Nov 44: again under 2. Flak-Div., took part in the fighting retreat from Estonia through Latvia to the Kurland (Courland) region in northwestern Latvia.
Dec 44 – May 45: it remained trapped in the Kurland pocket until the end of the war.
FpNs: Stab (L 18359), 6. (L 16682), 7. (L 18294), 8. (L 05302), 9. (L 15184), 10. (L 13880), Kolonne (L 07104).
Kommandeur:
Obstlt. Kurt Wagner (1 Oct 35 - 31 Mar 37)
Obstlt. Johannes Kördel (10 Sep 39 - 23 Apr 41)
Maj. Fritz Winkler (c.1 May 41 - 30 Nov 42)
Obstlt. Rudolf Schwarze (1 Dec 42 - 9 May 43)
Maj. Wilhelm Jürgens (16 May 43 - 14 Feb 44) WIA


Gefechtsstand/12. Flak-Division

3.11.1943: in Bobruisk and still there on 1,1,1944.

Gefechtsstand/Luftflottenkommando 6

Go here: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/


L.




© by Henry L. deZeng IV (Work in Progress).
(1st Draft 2008)
Reply With Quote
  #238  
Old 12th January 2019, 16:57
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,912
Larry deZeng is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: German docs in TSAMO

Dan History wrote in part:
Quote:
I should have typed up the information in the links previously provided by Andrey - http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showpo...92&postcount=8
My fault for being in a rush! I should have taken my time and read Andrey's thread. "Haste make waste!" "A stitch in time saves nine!" At least that's what my old and long deceased grandmother (DOB: 1879) used to say.

L.
Reply With Quote
  #239  
Old 12th January 2019, 18:16
egbert egbert is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: NRW, Germany
Posts: 86
egbert is on a distinguished road
Re: German docs in TSAMO

Thank you so very much for your valuable information. A lot of new locations for me....
The TSAMO docs on Flak (for me) unfortunately deal only with I. Flakkorps.

My father was actively participating in the battle of Kursk as a Battery Commander 9./23...….
Reply With Quote
  #240  
Old 12th January 2019, 18:24
Dan History Dan History is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 109
Dan History is on a distinguished road
Re: German docs in TSAMO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry deZeng View Post
My fault for being in a rush!
Don't worry, Larry, your short history of the flak Abteilung shows that the 'Larry de Zeng archive' is still the world's best source of information about the Luftwaffe

Kind regards,

Dan
__________________
My research paper - How were German air force resources distributed between different fronts in the years 1941 to 1943 - http://www.ww2.dk/Luftwaffe Research.html
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Polish Campaign of 1939 - some first hand battle accounts Domen123 The Second World War in General 0 23rd December 2009 02:41
The Liberal View of the German Soldier Sylvester Stadler The Second World War in General 15 22nd March 2009 21:15
60 years after German KL Auchwitz-Birkenau Mirek Wawrzynski The Second World War in General 10 7th January 2008 16:20
My library - you rate it! generalderpanzertruppen Books and Magazines 8 24th November 2007 03:36
Foundation for German communication and related technologies rob van den nieuwendijk Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 3 5th May 2007 00:57


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 20:20.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net