ID of B13+ of 8./JG27 FL on French Beach @ 8.40

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Can anyone help ID this one? Jochen Prien has suggested an incident in October 1940 near Cap Gris Nez: Bf109E-4 with the WNr. 2794, but by then it should have had a yellow nose, and this one clearly doesn't. More likely an August, 1940, incident, in my opinion.

Who can help?

http://www.ebay.de/itm/260939479944?...#ht_731wt_1011

Regards,

[Bertrand H]

Hi Larry,

Our friend Ouidjat told two days ago on this forum that it is not Cap Gris or in this aera but Querqueville close to Cherbourg.

It is also my opinion because this print does not look like very much with Cap gris nez or blanc nez. Also same seller sold another print with a large hangar very common with the Querqueville aéronavale air base.

HTH


Bertrand

[Larry Hickey]

Bertrand,

Thanx for pointing this out. Does this indicate a possible date and pilot for this incident?

Regards,

[ChrisS]

Hi Larry

I may be barking up the wrong tree (or just barking) but could this have been a later incident, with the white 16 on the fuselage I wondered if this was a machine from Ergänzungsjagdgruppe Sud rather than 8./JG27?

Chris

[Jochen Prien]

Larry,

you are of course right that the lack of a yellow engine cowling should have alerted me, saying that this shot was taken before September 1940.

Taking a closer look at the a/c it does not only lack yellow recognition markings but also a head armour in the cockpit canopy, another hint that the photo was taken rather early in the BoB.

With that in mind and also with the relatively few recorded losses of 8./JG 27 in the early days of the BoB this makes Oblt. von Kageneck, who had to f/l on July 19th, 1940, after battle damage sustained in an aerial combat over the Isle of Wight, a very likely candidate. The damage to the a/c was reported as 35%, the location of the f/l is not known, but with III./JG 27 operating from Cherbourg during these days it would also match with the comments on the possible location.

BTW - there is no no. 16 on the fuselage - what we see are the remains of the Stammkennzeichen which look like "JG".

Any comments are welcome

Jochen Prien

[Rabe Anton]

Folks, may I enter here for a moment to say that the photo of the sw. 13 + is indeed challenging. I for one would surely like to see the incident cleared up.

Jochen Prien's keen eye and well-informed judgment seem to have provided the best answer so far, except—the aircraft in the photo is an E-1, whereas the loss entry for Ltn. Graf von Kageneck, 19.07.40, in Prien, et al., Dt. JFlg.Verbände, 4/I, p. 422, states a Bf 109E-4.

Guys, can we overcome this inconsistency?

RA

[markjsheppard]

Rabe,

It has the heavier canopy of the E-4.

Is that definitely the MG17's port hole or could the MG/FF's have been removed - albeit difficult!

regards

Mark

[Rabe Anton]

Grüß Gott Mark!

It is unclear what you mean by a "heavier" canopy as a characteristic of the Bf 109E-4. I assume that you mean the square- or flat-top component. If so, I know of no link between round- or flat-top canopies and individual Bf 109E subtypes. The Bf 109E design and production ab initio featured the round-top type that we know well. It continued to be installed on production lines until approximately the end of 1939. At some point around the end of 1939 or early in 1940, Bf 109E production of all subtypes (E-1, E-3, and later the E-4 and E-7) went over to the flat-top canopy of the type shown on "our" photograph of the sw. 13 + . There is photographic evidence of this transition for WNF Bf 109E-3s, at least, in Haberfellner's photo history of the Austrian plant. Moreover, beginning sometime in 1940, older round-top canopies also sometimes were replaced during repair or overhaul. I don't know the parameters for, or extent of, such post-assembly replacement: it was extensive but never seems to have reached 100 percent.

I don't wish to be dogmatic, but the "armament hole" in the leading edge of the sw. 13 + appears to me to be above the leading edge centerline, in other words, it seems to be consistent with E-1 wing machineguns rather than 20mm cannon. The passage hole through the leading edge for the cannon barrels of E-3s and E-4s, as we know, lay on on the centerline of the leading edge, that is, slightly lower down on the rounded front of the airfoil.

RA

[markjsheppard]

Hi Rabe,

Sorry, was under the impression the square topped heavier canopy was introduced on the E-4 model but assume they were retrofitted/fitted to other models by this period.

As for the guns - sure you are right.

Besides that, cannot really add to location and loss.

regards

Mark

[RT]

To add that between the E-3 nd E-4 the difference is so tiny...

Rémi