Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940

[Alex Smart]

Hi Stig,
I forgot to include the prototype

[Stig Jarlevik]

Yep, you did Alex....
Cheers
Stig

[Stig Jarlevik]

Just a quick update

I have by now a pretty good idea what happened to all the 345 French ordered aircraft up to the end of 1940.

The statistics as presented by one member of Air Britain does not entirely fit the bill so to speak, but
since I am generally a bit suspicious about statistics anyway, I am not too worried....

There is a ledger preserved by SHAA in France which confirms the Martins were painted with their French No
numbers before packing and shipping from New York.
They are almost all listed with their corresponding Martin c/n.

I am waiting to get (hopefully) some more news about the six SAAF Marylands which never
received any RAF s/n before delivery (SAAF 1601 - 1606)

If anyone at this stage can advise what HK865 (RAF) was I would be very happy. I am still waiting to get
its AM78 card (if it still exists).

Alex (in response to one of your earlier posts which I forgot to address)
The RAF serials AH205 - 279 (70 Marylands Mk I) were all canceled and never used. One source also
indicate they were in fact a follow on for the 20 Harvards AH185-204 but if
that was so it is so far unproven,
and bottom line is that not one of the allotted batch was ever used.
No connection to SAAF what so ever.

Cheers
Stig

[Snautzer]

perhaps of intrest to you collected ebay pictures https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/thread...and-167.42298/

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Snautzer

Some new ones! Also located a separate topic on the XA-22.
There is an interesting photo showing what must be the prototype at Bolling Field in an unusual
camouflage.

Unfortunately most French aircraft are impossible to ID.

Cheers
Stig

[Alex Smart]

The photo of the French Naval '167 with fuselage stripes. I seem to remember another French twin engined type that had such fuselage stripes. The colours were White and Red. Something to do with training or target tow but forget which.

The one with Luftwaffe markings was probably used as were other types as ground targets for the Allied Forces.

[Alex Smart]

Hi Stig,
In regard to the Maryland's in the HK serial number range.

All that is in the AB HA100 - HZ999 book is as follows -

It does not specify Mk I or Mk II just "Martin 167 Maryland".

HK836 - origin unknown, no record, probably ex French.

HK845 - Presumed escaped from Vichy AIR Force, SOC 22.2.42.

HK865 - Impressed, probably ex Vichy AIR Force, no record of service found.

With regard to the SAAF Marylands 1601 - 1606.
I assume that these would have been Mark I's rather than Mk II's.

So from the AB books and "85 Years SAAF". Here are serial numbers that served with SAAF that did not receive SAAF numbers as far as is known. So 1601 to 1606 may be in these numbers ?

Maryland I's
BS773
BS777
AR722
AR749

Maryland II's
AH283
AH286
AH287
AH288
AH341
AH344
AH349
AH350
AH351
AH352
AH354
AH358
AH359
AH361
AH362
AH363
AH364
AH365
AH366
AH370
AH381
AH382
AH383
AH384
AH385
AH396
AH397
AH398
AH400
AH401
AH404
AH405

Also I notice in "85 Years" that following -
SAAF number - Squadron - four digit number - RAF number.
ie
1608 - 24 - 1851 - AH304.
So was "1851" a Martin construction number or a French number ? It is not explained in the book as far as I can see.

All the best
Alex

PS:
Re your ref to AM78, AIR 78 is lists of names .
I think you may mean AIR 81 which is aircraft and airmen accidents/losses ?

Here is a link to Air81 Marylands up to the end of 1942,(63 in all). Not all the serial numbers are correct but a mix of RAF and SAAF or maybe French number ?
This happens across-the-board for all aircraft types unfortunately.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...rt=1&id=C16484

Alex

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hi Alex

Yes, I have Winston's book
No the RAF aircraft received were used in combat, a long way from South Africa itself and they never carried
any SAAF s/n
The column with the four digit numbers (aka 1851) are indeed the Martin c/n.
SAAF 1601-1606 are deff Mk I.
They were all assigned during the autumn of 1940 before any Mk II had reached anyone.
HK836 and HK845 were both captured French aircraft at Libreville during the Gabon campaign. They were
former No 109 and 110 respectively.
However HK865, if really ex Vichy, fails to identify itself, can't see any Vichy aircraft that fits. Anyone?

The AM78 form is the actual RAF movement card, not the accident one. If you look at one you will see
that in the left bottom corner it says A.M. Form 78 (A.M. for Air Ministry I assume)

There actually is one more mysterious SAAF Maryland, SAAF 1682, which lacks all kind of ID.
That one may well have been one with a former RAF s/n sent south when the type went out of front line use!

Cheers
Stig

[Alex Smart]

Hi Stig,
See here re Form AM78

http://www.rafcommands.com/archive/09901.php

Seems Middle East and Far East did not generally have full details.
So you may not get anything useful.

Alex

[Stig Jarlevik]

All interested

I have now "finished" my Maryland Mk I list.
Unfortunately it has proved impossible (for me) to get it 100% correct.
Far too many "dark horses" running around.

Reason for that are no doubt the lack of 100% detail within the French preserved documents.

As an example we have four aircraft mentioned just once by Cuny/Denel in their writings about the type.
No dates just a statement of arrival into Casablanca.
No 236, 250, 259 and 263.
If my theory is right, two of these must have been diverted to UK after all.
Due to various reasons I have discarded both No 259 and 263.

Other aircraft which simply vanish are
No 267, 270, 271, 279, 281 and 282
They get no mentioning at all by Cuny/Denel and neither do they fit in as delivered to Britain.
We know they are not the six sent directly to Takoradi (they are all numbered except one)

Due to this it has been impossible to establish exactly which six Mk I that went to SAAF as 1601 - 1606.
It is easy to think they fit the six 'vanished' French aircraft but if they really are then we have six
sent to Britain that gets missing instead.

I still don't have a clue what and from where HK865 came from. Syria/Lebanon is mentioned.

Anyone interested in my present list can contact me off forum with their e-mails and I will send
it over
Of course if anyone can add anything at all to the problem aircraft above, please feel free to do so.

Cheers
Stig