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Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union. |
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#21
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Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
Hi Stig,
I forgot to include the prototype |
#22
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Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
Yep, you did Alex....
Cheers Stig |
#23
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Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
Just a quick update
I have by now a pretty good idea what happened to all the 345 French ordered aircraft up to the end of 1940. The statistics as presented by one member of Air Britain does not entirely fit the bill so to speak, but since I am generally a bit suspicious about statistics anyway, I am not too worried.... There is a ledger preserved by SHAA in France which confirms the Martins were painted with their French No numbers before packing and shipping from New York. They are almost all listed with their corresponding Martin c/n. I am waiting to get (hopefully) some more news about the six SAAF Marylands which never received any RAF s/n before delivery (SAAF 1601 - 1606) If anyone at this stage can advise what HK865 (RAF) was I would be very happy. I am still waiting to get its AM78 card (if it still exists). Alex (in response to one of your earlier posts which I forgot to address) The RAF serials AH205 - 279 (70 Marylands Mk I) were all canceled and never used. One source also indicate they were in fact a follow on for the 20 Harvards AH185-204 but if that was so it is so far unproven, and bottom line is that not one of the allotted batch was ever used. No connection to SAAF what so ever. Cheers Stig |
#24
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Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
perhaps of intrest to you collected ebay pictures https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/thread...and-167.42298/
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#25
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Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
Thanks Snautzer
Some new ones! Also located a separate topic on the XA-22. There is an interesting photo showing what must be the prototype at Bolling Field in an unusual camouflage. Unfortunately most French aircraft are impossible to ID. Cheers Stig |
#26
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Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
The photo of the French Naval '167 with fuselage stripes. I seem to remember another French twin engined type that had such fuselage stripes. The colours were White and Red. Something to do with training or target tow but forget which.
The one with Luftwaffe markings was probably used as were other types as ground targets for the Allied Forces. |
#27
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Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
Hi Stig,
In regard to the Maryland's in the HK serial number range. All that is in the AB HA100 - HZ999 book is as follows - It does not specify Mk I or Mk II just "Martin 167 Maryland". HK836 - origin unknown, no record, probably ex French. HK845 - Presumed escaped from Vichy AIR Force, SOC 22.2.42. HK865 - Impressed, probably ex Vichy AIR Force, no record of service found. With regard to the SAAF Marylands 1601 - 1606. I assume that these would have been Mark I's rather than Mk II's. So from the AB books and "85 Years SAAF". Here are serial numbers that served with SAAF that did not receive SAAF numbers as far as is known. So 1601 to 1606 may be in these numbers ? Maryland I's BS773 BS777 AR722 AR749 Maryland II's AH283 AH286 AH287 AH288 AH341 AH344 AH349 AH350 AH351 AH352 AH354 AH358 AH359 AH361 AH362 AH363 AH364 AH365 AH366 AH370 AH381 AH382 AH383 AH384 AH385 AH396 AH397 AH398 AH400 AH401 AH404 AH405 Also I notice in "85 Years" that following - SAAF number - Squadron - four digit number - RAF number. ie 1608 - 24 - 1851 - AH304. So was "1851" a Martin construction number or a French number ? It is not explained in the book as far as I can see. All the best Alex PS: Re your ref to AM78, AIR 78 is lists of names . I think you may mean AIR 81 which is aircraft and airmen accidents/losses ? Here is a link to Air81 Marylands up to the end of 1942,(63 in all). Not all the serial numbers are correct but a mix of RAF and SAAF or maybe French number ? This happens across-the-board for all aircraft types unfortunately. https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...rt=1&id=C16484 Alex Last edited by Alex Smart; 2nd September 2022 at 03:44. |
#28
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Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
Hi Alex
Yes, I have Winston's book No the RAF aircraft received were used in combat, a long way from South Africa itself and they never carried any SAAF s/n The column with the four digit numbers (aka 1851) are indeed the Martin c/n. SAAF 1601-1606 are deff Mk I. They were all assigned during the autumn of 1940 before any Mk II had reached anyone. HK836 and HK845 were both captured French aircraft at Libreville during the Gabon campaign. They were former No 109 and 110 respectively. However HK865, if really ex Vichy, fails to identify itself, can't see any Vichy aircraft that fits. Anyone? The AM78 form is the actual RAF movement card, not the accident one. If you look at one you will see that in the left bottom corner it says A.M. Form 78 (A.M. for Air Ministry I assume) There actually is one more mysterious SAAF Maryland, SAAF 1682, which lacks all kind of ID. That one may well have been one with a former RAF s/n sent south when the type went out of front line use! Cheers Stig |
#29
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Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
Hi Stig,
See here re Form AM78 http://www.rafcommands.com/archive/09901.php Seems Middle East and Far East did not generally have full details. So you may not get anything useful. Alex |
#30
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Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
All interested
I have now "finished" my Maryland Mk I list. Unfortunately it has proved impossible (for me) to get it 100% correct. Far too many "dark horses" running around. Reason for that are no doubt the lack of 100% detail within the French preserved documents. As an example we have four aircraft mentioned just once by Cuny/Denel in their writings about the type. No dates just a statement of arrival into Casablanca. No 236, 250, 259 and 263. If my theory is right, two of these must have been diverted to UK after all. Due to various reasons I have discarded both No 259 and 263. Other aircraft which simply vanish are No 267, 270, 271, 279, 281 and 282 They get no mentioning at all by Cuny/Denel and neither do they fit in as delivered to Britain. We know they are not the six sent directly to Takoradi (they are all numbered except one) Due to this it has been impossible to establish exactly which six Mk I that went to SAAF as 1601 - 1606. It is easy to think they fit the six 'vanished' French aircraft but if they really are then we have six sent to Britain that gets missing instead. I still don't have a clue what and from where HK865 came from. Syria/Lebanon is mentioned. Anyone interested in my present list can contact me off forum with their e-mails and I will send it over Of course if anyone can add anything at all to the problem aircraft above, please feel free to do so. Cheers Stig |
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