Inscription on reverse of photo? Place name?

[Rottler]

Hello,

in the primary source Gen.Qu. loss return 15 August 1941 item 25 is listed:
21.7. K.Gr.z.b.V. 104 Feindflug, Ort: Balti, Ursache: Feindbeschuss, Ju 52 2996 100%.
In the Bundesarchiv Freiburg version of the loss return the loss category 5 is handwritten added = destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, not observed by enemy / Totalverlust ohne Feindbeobachtung durch Bordwaffenbeschuss auf Feindflug.
According to "ju52archiv.de" the Stammkennzeichen was NO+HG.

Regards
Leo

[Adriano Baumgartner]

IAN,

There are some real experts here (I remember a similar thread that one used Google images and geographical details to do so) that maybe can check the geographic area in question.

One can see on the background of the Ju 52, some cliffs in the distance...and the vegetation seems to be dry and of low kind...

I still would have a glimpse on the Trapani loss...maybe someone can try to find the crewmembers and more detail....for me, the weather, climate, geographical details and perhaps the BOLZI (Italian) name points in that direction....

Could be Bolzi an Italian Officer on board of the Trapani lost machine ?

Adriano

[Adriano Baumgartner]

IAN,

Did a bit of "touristic" tour, and the mountainous area surrounding WILNA do seems more appropriate here with the background of your picture: http://www.garnek.pl/emzet/10531431/...wzgorza-trzech

Trapani is more mountainous than Wilna area...

A.B.

[ouidjat]

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

Larry and Franck,

Does someone do have the codes for that werknummer 2996 ?

Maybe this is indeed the machine quoted by De Zeng "plus 1 x Ju 52 assigned to JG 77 destroyed" that you matched the werknummer and unit (KGr.zbV 104), Franck...

Amazing thread indeed...

Did Denès Bernard identifyed the machine and unit on his published book ? Denès, can you give us a glimpse of what you wrote for that particular action or picture ?

Congratulations Ian...amazing thread.

A. Baumgartner

Wow wow wow...
Wait a minute.... I did accept "Balti" and it happens that in lost list there is this machine (without code unfortunately) destroyed during July, i.e. in Summer.
BUT, for me, it's just a "maybe", nothing more.
Too much speculation on name at this point leading to one loss matching with the guessed name.
I think it's too much to be sure.


regards,
Franck.

[ouidjat]

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

IAN,
Did a bit of "touristic" tour, and the mountainous area surrounding WILNA do seems more appropriate here with the background of your picture: Trapani is more mountainous than Wilna area...

A.B.

Yes , and the Ju52 has a Barbarossa Yellow band around the fuselage behind the black cross. exit Trapani.

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Franck, am not making conclusions...I am suggesting further researches, nothing more...am not specialist neither on LW, neither on Ju 52 or those two areas of Europe (Geographical details, etc.).

However I can see, like you, what is on the picture:
1- This is NOT winter so we can rule out from Ian's researches the two losses on winter (December and January)
2- There are some cliffs or low cliffs on the left side of the picture which does matches the surrounding (panorama) of Wilna and not Trapani area as I thought before wrongly;
3 - The BAND on the fuselage indeed seems to be YELLOW (pointing to the Eastern Front) rather White (Mediterranean Front);
4- We found some persons named Bolzi in Italy...(could lead towards the Trapani loss);
5- The machine do have the Flaps down...do not know if it was standard to raise them after landing or not...maybe the flyers used to let them down, ready for a quick take-off (some still do that);
6- Crew seems to have had time to evacuate (and one do not see strikes near the rear gunner place);
7- The plane seems to have bogged down or finished its course on some kind of geographical degree (near the bushes in the front)...or the landing gears collapsed. What do you think guys? Anyway...was it pushed there (if it was an air-to-ground strike by Russian planes)?
8 - the machine is coded ?? + MT as shown on the photograph...and IAN found some of the Ju 52 losses with the codes ending + MT....are there more??? or just those found by Ian??

Am just trying to open new roads...as I said, am not a specialist.


Adriano

[ouidjat]

I feel here comes an argument so I stop to post in this thread ...

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Franck I do apologize if I wrote something wrong previously. I did not wanted to be rude or offend anyone here. English nor French are my natural languages, so we tend to think in one's natural one and write (translating) in English. For me particularly it is not a 100% process and I know I do mistakes.

I just pointed some ideas (speculations maybe) onto the thread.

We do not have the first two letters of the code, neither another clue (crewmember's name behind the Picture), neither a date...behind the Picture.

I feel the positive ID is near close to be found...so all elements of the shown Picture could (or should) be checked and maybe could also be discarded...with evidences.

Guess that from the list Ian submitted we do all agree that the December and January losses can be discarded since we do not see snow on the Picture. So, we do have (from his list of machines coded +MT) some 2-3 possible candidates.

Of course, we (I surely don't) know if other machines coded +MT were eventually recorded lost. Regarding "Balti", guess it opened another "road" or field of research, since that machine was not previously recorded onto Ian's list...guess we agreed on that. I wrote "maybe this could be this machine"...I did not jumped conclusions either. You pointed the Yellow Band, so discarding the Trapani machine...so from Ian's list, only two possible candidates now.

Again, if I wrote something that may have sounded personel, please do discard that option. I have nothing against you or no one else on this Fórum and will keep that way.

We all will be very pleased to count on you on the Board and, eventually helping or suggesting new ideas or roads onto this particular thread.

If you want to contact me off board to point out or Exchange ideas, or to inform where I wrote something wrong or maybe offensive into this thread, please let's clear it, ok? Am here to learn, to make friends (have made quite some) and help in my very limitated field of action.

Most sincerely yours,
Adriano S. Baumgartner

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Where you read "...are my natural languages..." understand: "...are NOT..."

[Larry deZeng]

I just tackled the photo with special magnifying equipment and get: G6+MT repeat G6+MT. KGr. z.b.V. 2, 101, 102, 104, 105 and TG 4 all operated Ju 52s coded "G6+M_". Of nearly 200 listed in the Barry Rosch Luftwaffe Codes, Markings and Units 1939-1945 (Schiffer, 1995) book, pages 31-32, he has an +MQ, +MH, +MP, +MR, +MS, +MT, +MU. The G6+MT was a Ju 52/3m and belonged to KGr. z.b.V. 104. Note: nearly all of the code examples given in the Rosch book come from the Gen.Qu. loss reports. During the June - September 1941 period, KGr. z.b.V. 104 was assigned to and operated under Dt.Lw.Mission in Rumänien (DLM) and was variously based at Bucharest and Târgsorul Nou with its Staffeln and individual aircraft operating in and out of numerous other airfields in Bessarabia and eastward to Odessa, Nikolayev and Chaplinka.

I'm not an aircraft person, but maybe this might help some of you who are.

L.