luftwaffe flying discs

[white1]

can anyone shed any light on how far advanced the flying disc projects were by the wars end, Schriever, Habermohl, Miethe and Bellonzo . ive read conflicting stories on various websites and books, some say they were at a very advanced stage whilst others say they had barely begun, if at all.in david masters book german jet genesis there is an apparent quote by an RAF technical officer who stated they had found a new and deadly develpment in german air warfare.

any info would be of great help.thanks

[ArtieBob]

I don’t know exactly where to begin, but the answer is No! No real “flying disc” of extremely advanced design came out of the death throes of Nazi Germany. The Germans had areas of technology where they were the most advanced and others where they had fallen behind during the period from 1939-1945. The Germans, then, nor now, had any magic “foo-foo” that inherently gave them an entree to technological superiority. It basically comes down to how much resources in man material and money one has and how you spend it. Where the Germans concentrated their resources, they had generally good technology, but in very few areas were they as far ahead of GB and USA as Third Reichophiles would have you believe. In the areas where the allies were ahead, it was because they in general had more engineers, more development facilities and had focused their effort.

As to flying Discs. There was an extremely large and well organized Allied effort to evaluate and exploit the state-of-the-art in Nazi Germany immediately before and following capitulation. This was broad based, looking at every area from raw materials to finished products and every stage in between. Unlike many seem to think most of this material was not kept secret, at least here in the USA, and by 1946 most of it was available as public domain (even though it had been highly classified when held by the Nazis). Information on aerodynamics, structures, power plants and were and still are fairly readily accessible. The point is, after the initial period of interest immediately following the war, there was really very little interest in the subject for a period of 10 to 15 years ( I know, this was the time period when I began my research). I was so happy when in 1954, I found a single book that had as it’s subject, Luftwaffe aircraft (incidentally, it was published in Japan).
I am wandering from discs. As an aerodynamic configuration, they are well suited to Frisbees. The Canadians actually tried to build a full scale aircraft in this configuration, it was not very successful. There are actually a few aircraft in the West (and perhaps the East) that have seen very little light of day. Those that are interested enough can find some information and it seems that none are basically round. If there were any special aerodynamic characteristics of the flying disc that could be applied to aircraft applications, more people would have built and flown them. It all goes back to my original premise is that no nationality has any “magic” that automatically makes them technically superior. There is the occasional exceptional genius that sees things as no one else was able to before, but even these guys usually build on the efforts of their predecessor. Ten or fifteen years from now, when the massive focusing of resources now occurring in China bear fruit, people possibly will wonder at their technological prowess in the areas focused on.

Best regards,

Artie Bob

[edwest]

As a long-time researcher, I usually find that the answer is often not no. J. Andreas Epp wrote a book, in German, about his wartime work with conventionally powered disc aircraft. The existence of Dr. Richard Miethe, long doubted by skeptics, was confirmed by former Secretary to the U.S. Air Force, Alexander Flax, on the television program Sightings. He did work for the Air Force.

The history of disc aircraft begins in the 1920s with a man named T. Townsend Brown. There are patents related to this work. There was also an exchange of technical information between Germany and the U.S. before the war. In fact, the Germans did improve on some technologies brought over from America.

After the war, American veterans wrote about their encounters with what were dubbed "foo fighters." I would take these eyewitness accounts at face value.

The A.V. Roe company in Canada was tasked by the Americans to build a disc aircraft. The Avrocar is the publicly known project, which fared poorly. Another project was being completed behind the scenes: the supersonic Project Y 2 (Air Technical Intelligence Center T55-2049). There are patents related to this aircraft.

So the Germans did develop conventionally powered disc aircraft during the war. I would remind everyone that the German ejection seat was kept secret for 15 years after the war. It was imperative that the Russians, and other potential enemies, did not know what we had.

If you are more than just curious about these aircraft, you should look up the following: "experimental ballistic electrode" and "asymmetric capacitor."

The disc aircraft were seen over the U.S. and Canada after the war. Their association with extraterrestrials instead of the military, coupled with a campaign of ridicule that continues to this day, ensured that people would be very reluctant to report them or be taken seriously if they did. Such objects have been seen by military pilots, sometimes in conjunction with trained ground observers and radar. Astronomers and other scientists, including Paul R. Hill (Langley Research Center, NACA and NASA), have also seen them. Mr. Hill also published a book titled Unconventional Flying Objects, where he shows that the objects seen follow, not defy, the laws of physics. The forward is written by Robert M. Wood (Aeronautical Engineer, 1953-1961, and R & D Manager for McDonnell Douglas, 1961 - 1993).



Regards,
Ed West

[John Beaman]

You might also find the following site of interest:

http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/abwat.../naziufo1.html

[edwest]

I've read it. Believe me, if I had followed every utterance of "trust me, there's nothing to it," I would have stopped researching things a long time ago.

Dismissal is easy. It can be done by anyone. Research is difficult.



Ed

[Richard T. Eger]

Dear Ed,

I agree with Artie Bob. There were a plethora of off the wall projects in Germany. However, when it came down to execution, as Artie Bob said, there is nothing magical that can be done to create something, other than sweat and toil. The Me 262, which I have studied in great detail, was an advanced aircraft. But, in the end, it was a construct of primarily sheet metal, just formed into a unique shape utilizing nascent jet engine technology. The problems of developing it were handled with very straight forward engineering. It was anything but magical.

You have suggested that flying saucers have been developed in the U.S. and/or Canada over the last 60 years, potentially deriving some basis from German WW II developments. You also imply that these developments have been held as closely guarded secrets, lo these many years. Admittedly, stealth technology was held secret for a fair number of years. But, at some point in time, in order to actually apply it, the secret had to be let out of the bag. For, what good is an advanced technology, if you can't make use of it?

So, I submit that, given the potential of 60 years worth of development, the fact that the cat has never been let out of the bag, that we don't have squadrons of these wonder weapons in our arsenal, I am led to conclude that they don't exist or that their technological advance was found to be wanting and the concept discarded.

Working backwards, I thus also conclude that the Germans were likely playing with themselves on this idea, too. Further, if any effort was actually funded, it was likely of an extremely low priority with very little funding, indeed. Every crackpot idea seemed to catch the fancy of someone in the Reich government and, with their penchant for wonder weapons, almost nothing completely died on the vine.

As for our keeping the ejection seat a secret from the Russians for 15 years, Ed, get real! The He 162 was equipped with an ejection seat and the Russians certainly captured examples of that aircraft. If these guys could reproduce complete B-29's from the 3 examples that fell into their hands, they could easily develop the ejection seat. Note, that they also got their share of German engineers, too. The Russians are a pretty savvy lot, as witness Sputnik.

Regards,
Richard

[ArtieBob]

There is perhaps some intimation that my answer regarding German technology during the Third Reich may not be based upon research, which Mr. West intimates is very difficult.
As I am now approaching 70, my research concerning the relative state of the art actually began well over 50 years ago. Since that time, I have indeed performed a fair amount of research, most on my own time but also some paid for others. I do not find it particlarly difficult, but it does take time and effort and some knowledge of the subject matter to understand what one is looking at.
I have a somewhat unusual background, having degrees in both physics and history as well as being a registered professional engineer. I have also been a pilot for over 50 years having been fortunate to fly props, jets, gliders, helicopters, flying boats, etc. I also at times made my living doing research on what are known as WMDs, having been up close and personal with conventional, chemical and nuclear weapons. As to Luftwaffe related research, over the past 50 some years, I have been in several archives working both with original and microfilm copies of Luftwaffe related material from both sides. At a minimum, I have personally looked at 3 or 4 million pages of material. While I recognize this is not exhaustive (there is still a lot of material to look at) and I am just as prone to errors as the next person, my perspective as an aviation person, an engineer and a historian is hopefully not too bad.

Best regards

Artie Bob

[edwest]

To ArtieBob:


Please note my reply was directed at John Beaman's post and link. I meant no disrespect for your work or to Richard Eger. My only point is that sometimes things are overlooked because people have been repeatedly told there's nothing there.

Recently, I ran across an obituary to John Lansdale (ALSOS) published on September 1, 2003 in the New York Times. It made reference to an interview that was published in the Times in 1995. And specifically in reference to a captured U-boat carrying uranium: "Mr. Lansdale said the material, originally intended for Japan's atomic program, instead ended up in the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki."

I would also recommend a look at the book, Dark Waters by Lee Vyborny, about a submarine designated NR-1. I mention this off topic item only because the government does know how to keep a secret.

However, in the case of disc aircraft, they were/are operational but kept a virtual secret by persistent, continuous ridicule for over 50 years. If you are curious, you can see the results of private experiments into what is referred to as electrogravitics. Just type "lifter technology" into google.


Regards,
Ed West

[ArtieBob]

Just a note, if my information is correct, one of the bombs dropped on Japan was in fact, a Plutonium bomb. If that is correct, it seems unlikely that both the bombs dropped would have contained Uranium captured from the Nazis. I am certain Mr. Lansdale may have believed what he said, but if you really understand very much about fissile material and criticality some of the details of the story may indicate that both he and those that have repeated his story may have limited knowledge in that area.

Best regards,

Artie Bob

[Franek Grabowski]

Reputedly there was a US disc winged aircraft build just after the war for USN. I do not remember the designation but after trials it was sadly scrapped. Please note the difference between the disc wing and the flying sauccer like Avro.