Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 17th February 2008, 22:10
RT RT is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 3,630
RT is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Luftwaffe Escape and Evasion

At last when the story come from the mouth of the horse....all is questionnable

Don't forget reinhardt Heydrich who was "escaped"

remi
  #22  
Old 18th February 2008, 19:51
George Hopp's Avatar
George Hopp George Hopp is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ottawa, CA
Posts: 830
George Hopp
Re: Luftwaffe Escape and Evasion

Quote:
look e.g. here http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/beisfjord.html
"Another Stuka made a forced landing at Beisfjord the same day. A5+DK of 2.StG 1 was shot down by a Hurricane of 46 Sqdn.RAF (Sgt.Taylor). The Stuka crew(Ltn.KlausKübel) was taken prisoner by Polish troops and shot dead shortly after."
In Normandy, where the Poles and Canadians fought side-by-side, the Poles would simply march German PoWs in front of a table, behind which an officer sat, declare them war criminals and shoot them. End of story. This was watched by a friend of mine in the Canadian Army.

All the best,
George
  #23  
Old 19th February 2008, 02:33
Sylvester Stadler's Avatar
Sylvester Stadler Sylvester Stadler is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 77
Sylvester Stadler is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe Escape and Evasion

[quote=Franek Grabowski;60042]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvester Stadler View Post
But Stahlschmidt was killed before publishing the book, so he could not provide the authors with the account. I recall reading, that he cooperated with some war correspondents or journals, but cannot say if it is true.
What difference does it make whether Stahlschmidt gave his report to a reporter or to his intelligence officer? His account is either true or false, or partly true and partly false. Evidently, Christopher Shores in his book, Fighters over the Desert, on pages 96-97, considers the account as accurate.

Here is what Shores has to say: "Suddenly his engine cut during a pass, and he force-landed, ramming a truck. He was hauled from his cockpit by troops who turned out to be members of the Polish Brigade. The angry Poles beat him with rifle butts, and kicked him, ripping off his decorations, and making run the gauntlet of the column. He was then examined and interrogated by a Polish and a South African officer, before being sent to another camp. After midnight he managed to escape, and walked about five miles to the spot where he had originally crashed, finding there a German outpost which returned him to his unit without more ado, his return causing great jubilation. A few days later he returned to Germany on leave with Lt. Marseille."

It is certainly possible that Stahlschmidt was in no condition to return to a flight status with the injuries sustained from the treatment of the hands of the Polish soldiers. Gabrowski lives in a fantasy world where the Poles can do no wrong. The killing of thousands of German civilians in the first days of the war (September 1939) by Polish soldiers and civilians is evidence that the Poles could commit war atrocities (see the works of Alfred-Maurice de Zayas). Gabrowski presents no evidence that the beatings of Stahlschmidt did not take place, only presenting an un-named "witness" who was allegedly there. What we have here is the statement of a participant (Stahlschmidt) and no other participant has ever come forward to testify as to what he saw or did.
  #24  
Old 19th February 2008, 17:38
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 2,352
Franek Grabowski is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe Escape and Evasion

George
Your story does not make sense. The desk suggests it was a court, thus a paperwork should exist, so it must have been known and accepted by Allied command. It is unlikely if not impossible. Most of PoWs execution were on the spot, in the heat of combat, just like a well known execution at Dachau performed by GIs. There is still standing question, where, when, and where are the bodies. And I am curious if your friend mentioned any executions by Canadians?

Sylvester
The question is very simple - what is the origin of Stahlschmidt's account. Christopher Shores is no God and has no monopoly on truth, and neither provides answer for the question nor verify it with other sources. Your question on what is the difference between propaganda account and a report is rather naive to say the least. By the nature, propaganda distorts the reality either to support own morale or to scare people to increase their efficiency. Every propaganda account, and German and Soviet in particular are highly suspicious and should be always verified against other sources.
Your note about Stahlschmidt being not fit to fly and send to Germany is only a supposition of yours and not based on any grounds. The same about your 'evidence' of crimes against German civilian population. The trick is that the German civilian population was armed, and in Bydgoszcz/Bromberg it attacked Polish troops inflicting serious losses. Also, in parallel, there were several brute attacks on Polish civilian population on the area. There are reports of numerous German agents smuggled to Poland and photographs of their equipment, so you cannot claim it is a Polish invention. You also fail to note numerous crimes committed by the German troops, in particular infamous 4 Panzer Division, which in eagerness even shot their own.
One more thing that makes the difference between Germans and Allies. Those were decisions on the highest levels of German government to mistreat Allied airmen, and not only some trigger happy soldiers, who could act in some emotion.
  #25  
Old 19th February 2008, 18:59
odybvig odybvig is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posts: 132
odybvig
Re: Luftwaffe Escape and Evasion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski View Post
Those were decisions on the highest levels of German government to mistreat Allied airmen, and not only some trigger happy soldiers, who could act in some emotion.
Can you document this ?

Best from Norway
Olve Dybvig
  #26  
Old 19th February 2008, 20:42
Csaba B. Stenge's Avatar
Csaba B. Stenge Csaba B. Stenge is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hungary
Posts: 596
Csaba B. Stenge is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe Escape and Evasion

There were some evasives and escapes by Hungarian crewmembers as well. Two famous aces swam the Dniepr as well to reach the German lines in September and October, 1943, respectively (György Debrődy was shot down behind Soviet lines on 25 September, 1943 then Lajos Tóth on 3 October, 1943)
  #27  
Old 19th February 2008, 22:39
David Brown's Avatar
David Brown David Brown is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Dover, OHIO
Posts: 51
David Brown
Re: Luftwaffe Escape and Evasion

[quote=Franek Grabowski;60159]George
Your story does not make sense. The desk suggests it was a court, thus a paperwork should exist, so it must have been known and accepted by Allied command.

I believe George is referring to a "kangeroo-court". It is rare for such a court to document and have regard for the law since it acts on its own authority.

[quote=Franek Grabowski;60159]George
It is unlikely if not impossible.

Henry Fielding said it best about people who are prone to using absolutes. "Impossible - a word which in common conversation, is often used to signify not only the impropable, but often what is really very likely, and sometimes what hath certainly happened; an hyperbolical violence like that which is so frequently offered to the words infinite and eternal; by the former of which it is usual to express a distance of half a yard (or metre), and by the latter a duration of five minutes".
__________________
Dave Brown
OHIO
  #28  
Old 19th February 2008, 22:59
George Hopp's Avatar
George Hopp George Hopp is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ottawa, CA
Posts: 830
George Hopp
Re: Luftwaffe Escape and Evasion

Quote:
George
Your story does not make sense. The desk suggests it was a court, thus a paperwork should exist, so it must have been known and accepted by Allied command. It is unlikely if not impossible. Most of PoWs execution were on the spot, in the heat of combat, just like a well known execution at Dachau performed by GIs. There is still standing question, where, when, and where are the bodies. And I am curious if your friend mentioned any executions by Canadians?
Since when does murder have to make sense? The German PoWs were marched up before an officer behind a desk, labelled war criminals and then marched off and shot. No one bothered to interfere because they didn't much care for the Germans either, and the Poles were fanatical about this. Hey, when the "good guys" carry out war crimes, the bodies disappear -- just more of Normandy's rich farm land.
  #29  
Old 20th February 2008, 07:33
RT RT is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 3,630
RT is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Luftwaffe Escape and Evasion

Killing of prisoners, is something that today is well accepted, at least from one side, the praised movie of Spielberg upon Normandy hv minutes long of prisoners killing, it looks that makes very funny the killers

rémi
  #30  
Old 20th February 2008, 09:13
pelagonia pelagonia is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 72
pelagonia
Re: Luftwaffe Escape and Evasion

As far as the Italian front in 1944-45 is concerned, I remember reading that Poles were particularly hated by German parachutists, since it was well known they never took prisoners. Now I do not know if all these stories about trigger-happy Poles are true or not, but considering what Germans did to Poland, I think such a behaviour would be quite understandable.
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
M.i.9 Escape And Evasion Reports? Britace Allied and Soviet Air Forces 1 13th January 2007 08:51
New Book: Prisoners and Partisans: Escape and Evasion in World War II Italy Malcolm Tudor Books and Magazines 0 5th December 2006 19:18


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:40.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net