24 May 1944 JG27 claims for B-17s of 97th and 463rd BG

[Steve_Fossey]

Hi All,

I am attempting to match JG27 claims for 24 May 1944 near Agram (Zagreb) Yugoslavia with the two B-17s shot down near there (A/C 42-31841 of 463rd BG 775th BS and probably A/C 42-31392 "Our Baby'' 97th BG 414 BS or possibly 42-30169 ''Lady Luck'' 97th BG 341 BS). Any information or suggestions for where I might look would be appreciated. My German is mostly limited to ordering beer and various delicious but heart-unhealthy foods; however, I know a couple native speakers who are willing to translate.

Here is what I have so far: http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/doc/victories-germany-ww2-claims-b-17.pdf lists the pilots as Uffz. Günter Tschertner and Oblt. Ernst-Georg Altnorthof. I recall seeing somewhere that Uffz. Tschertner was credited with A/C 42-31392 "Our Baby''. By a process of elimination that would leave Oblt. Altnorthof with A/C 42-31841. Unfortunately, I’ve lost the source for the information on Uffz. Tschertner (a forum on a website). Also, a source for Oblt. Altnorthof being credited with A/C 42-31841 would be stronger evidence than simply inferring it by a process of elimination.

I have the MACR for A/C 42-31841 and I’m in the process of trying to locate the KU report at the USA National Archives.

My primary interest is in A/C 42-31841 (463rd BG), since my father was Radio Operator on that ship. He didn’t know anything about the LW pilot except that he was flying a Bf-109. A/C 31841 was lead ship in the second echelon and shot down on the second pass of the fighters about 1010 in the morning. A/C 42-31841 crashed near Schönstein, Yugoslavia (now Sostanj, Slovenia). Late in the day after my father had been captured, a German flying officer came in to look at him and two other crewmembers. The officer said nothing, but my father always assumed that the officer was the pilot that shot down his plane.

Thanks for your time and expertise,

Steve Fossey

PS both LW pilots were from 10. Staffel IV. JG 27 at the time based near Agram (Zagreb).

[John P Cooper]

Mission #282 Atzersdorf A/C Factory, Austria. 24 May 1944

37 A/C dispatched

Flak over target = Heavy - moderate intensity - fairly accurate

20 A/C damaged (minor)
2 A/C damaged (major)

30 Me 109s over target area

1 E/A destroyed

2 E/A damaged

2 -17s lost - cause unknown (one with two engines out the other with two smoking)

I have the crew names if needed.

John

[Tomislav Haramincic]

Hello,

I have the following
24.05.44 B-17G-15-BO 42-31392 "Our Baby" 414th BS/97th BG, shot down by a Bf109 in aerial combat over Sisak, crashed near Petrinja. Pilot James Clem, 4 KIA & 6 escaped (probably with the help of the local resistance).

24.05.44 B-17F-90-BO 42-30169 "'Lady Luck" 341st BS/97th BG, shot down by a Bf109, crashed near Celje (Cilli). Pilot Robert Close KIA, 9 POW.

24.05.44 B-24H-1-DT 41-28618 721st BS/450th BG, attacked by enemy fighters over W. Neustadt at 10:20 - a/c damaged, controls shot out, bombs salvoed through closed doors. 3 bailed out immediately, another 2 b/o over south Austria. Heading to Vis Island. Over Split hit again by flak, 2 b/o. The pilot and co-pilot bailed out last, before the a/c crashed on the Brac Island.

No details on the 42-31841, but I'll try to contact someone who perhaps knows more.

On the german side I have two losses
24.05.44 Bf 109G-6 WNr.412402 10./JG27 Obgefr. Hans Solotarew (†), Luftkampf - Absturz, Billichberg (22 km E Laibach) - 100%
24.05.44 Bf 109G-6 WNr.16x253 10./JG27 Oblt. Ernst-Georg Altnorthoff (verw.), Luftkampf - Absturz, FSA, Neu-Cilli (Celje) / Sachsenfeld - 100%

If you find any other information about the short stay of the IV./JG27 in Agram (Zagreb), please let me know.


best regards,
Tomislav

[Steve_Fossey]

Tomislav & John,

Thanks for the replies. I don't have much time right now so I will edit this message later with more detail. I don't have too much information about JG27, but do have a fair amount on 42-31841 (3 KIA, 6 POW, and 1 evaded and returned to Italy). I have crew names and MACR, any new information on 42-31841 also much appreciated.

Cheers,
Steve

[Steve_Fossey]

OK, maybe I can't edit my post.

John:
Is the information you posted for the 97th BG? It was mission #28 for the 463rd. A list of the missions on the website http://www.463rd.org/1944missions.htm lists 31 A/C sent from the 463rd on 24 May 1944. It doesn’t list any losses. I think the list was made just after or during the war and there may have been time constraints to compiling it. I would be surprised if there were no inaccuracies. A history of the 775th BS written just after the end of the war "Allyn’s Irish Orphans" indicates "Nine enemy aircraft were encountered enroute to the target and one 775th plane (No. 841) was lost."

Eyewitness accounts in MACR 5195 indicate that before 42-31841 broke up, two engines were knocked out and all four engines were smoking. In some audio tapes my father made he says that the right two engines were knocked out on the second pass. The bombadier 2nd Lt. Carl Janas was killed by a 20 mm shell. The navigator 2nd Lt. Wyckoff may or may not have been wounded. It was reported that his parachute did not open. There was also fuel leaking from the right wing and burning.

Tomislav:
Thanks for the info on the LW losses on 24 May. It’s interesting that Oblt. Altnorthoff was shot down near Cilli (Celje). My father evaded capture for a few hours, but was captured while trying to contact partisans. He was taken to the outskirts of a city that he thought might be Zagreb, but Zagreb is 100 km from Sostanj and that seems too far away. Celje at about 12 km seems more likely.

Thanks,
Steve

[John P Cooper]

Steve,

Yes sorry that was for the 97th BG.

John

[Csaba B. Stenge]

One B-17 was confirmed to the commander of the Hungarian 101/1. FS, Capt. Miklós Scholtz as well, I'll send you some details soon.

[Steve_Fossey]

I’m still trying to match up claims of B-17s shot down on 24 May 1944. Here is a time line based on the 3 MACRs:

Time 1010 A/C 42-31841 no nick name 463rd BG 775th BS seen to crash near Schönstein (Šoštanj). (3 KIA, 6 POW, 1 Evaded). MACR 5195

Time 1151 A/C 42-30169 "Lady Luck" 97th BG 341st BS time last seen 1151 location 45 20 N 16 13 E (north of Zagreb based on a map in the MACR) altitude 5000 ft MACR 5070 Crashed Cilli (Celje). The TT gunner was seen to shoot down a Bf-109. Shot down by Hungarian 101/1. FS, Capt. Miklós Scholtz?

Time 1205 A/C 42-31392 "Our Baby" 97th BG 414th BS time last seen 1205 location 44 33 N 15 13 E altitude was ~5,000 ft (~1.500 m) MACR 5187

Tony Wood’s list of LW claims lists 1015 as the time for Uffz. Tschertner ’s claim and 1016 as the time for Oblt. Altnorthof ’s claim and both list 6.000 m as the altitude. The time and altitude is not consistent with either MACR for the 97th BG A/C. Does anyone have any different information for these claims? Might it be possible that the two claims are both for ‘841 and some confusion arose because Altnorthof was shot down?

A second question is, what time were the two Bf-109s of 10./ IV./ JG27 shot down? So far, I have not found any fighter claims that are near Zagreb (I still have 10 claims of 2 FS/52 FG P-51 and 3 claims of 319 FS/ 325 FG, P-47 to check out).

Thanks,
Steve

[obivankinobi]

Hello Steve!

Here in Slovenia in Šoštanj (in ww2 Schonstein) lives one man that has a few pieces of B17 that was s/d near his house in Šoštanj (famous collector).

Best regards!

M.

[Nokose]

Has anyone checked Jochen Prien's book for IV/JG27 to see if it has any information?