French Air Force --Oran -- Operation Torch

[DavidIsby]

I am interested in English and French language sources for Vichy French Air Force operations opposing Operation TORCH, the Anglo-American landings, in 1942. I would be most grateful to anyone who can make recommendations.

I believe there was a series on this in ICARE years ago.

I am particularly interested in identifying the D.520s that engaged the USAAF C-47s near Oran.

Thanks

David Isby

[yves]

There is no Icare issues about Vichy air force.

The GC III/3 was based in Oran. On the 8/11/42 five C47 from TCG 60 were shot down by GC III/3 in Sebkra.
- 2 by Adjudant Roncin
- 3 by Cap Duval / Lt Blanck / Lt Madon / Lt Pissote
Ref: L'Aviation de Vichy au combat - Vol 1 - CJ.Ehrenhardt - C.Shore - 1985-

This book is out of print. You may find it on ebay.fr.
Regards
Yves

[Stephane Muret]

Hello,

Books from Jean Gisclon about GC 2/5 La Fayette have some chapters about this Group in north Africa. See "Chasseurs au groupe La Fayette" Nouvelles Editions Latines, 1994, chapter XIV.
You could read "Chasseurs en vue, on attaque" from Colonel A.A. Legrand, chapter X.
Both were members from GC 2/5 during WW2. Be careful, this is a french view wich could be very different from american point of view.

Hope this could help.

Stéphane Muret

[Lucien]

To my point of view, the best all round French book about operation Torch is Christian-Jacques Ehrengardt/Christopher F. Shores'one, L'aviation de Vichy au combat, volume 1 published in 1985. But I am affraid it is out of print now...

[Empiricist]

Hello gents

I will refresh a little this topic because it is one more example how much the historians, journalists and their publishers laugh at us the consumers of their “truths”.

Originally Posted by Stephane Muret

Be careful, this is a french view wich could be very different from American point of view.

Very wise words. See below.

Originally Posted by DavidIsby

I am particularly interested in identifying the D.520s that engaged the USAAF C-47s near Oran.

Originally Posted by yves

On the 8/11/42 five C47 from TCG 60 were shot down by GC III/3 in Sebkra.
- 2 by Adjudant Roncin
- 3 by Cap Duval / Lt Blanck / Lt Madon / Lt Pissote

Ref: L'Aviation de Vichy au combat - Vol 1 - CJ.Ehrenhardt - C.Shore - 1985

This is an interesting case study what the claim is and on the other hand what confirmed kill is. Something seems to be overclaimed in this story. What for the French historians is shooting the C-47s down for the USAAF TCC pilot, researcher and TCC’s historian is only landing the same C-47s at the Sebkra d'Oran dry lake bed. The same story on unsuccessful US paras drop on November 8th, 1942, you can read as follows (by Lt. Col. Charles H. Young, “Into the Valley” book):

When the French anti-aircraft fire opened up on the C-47s, and when several Dewoitine fighters attacked the incoming C-47s, it became evident that the “Peace Plan” was not in effect. One TC pilot of a shot-up C-47 backed off a Dewoitine by flying straight at him, which bought the TC crew enough time to get their ship on the ground. This C-47, and more than two dozen others in the target area, landed and re-grouped at the Sebkra d'Oran, a large dry lake bed not far from the two targeted airfields. After the Airborne commander learned that an Allied column from Arzeu had taken Tafaraoui, three Troop Carrier C-47s loaded with Airborne were dispatched from the Sebkra for Tafaraoui, where the paratroops were to garrison the airfield. The three aircraft were attacked by six French fighters and forced down.

Not one word about "kills", only forced landings of the C-47s, and not five but three aircraft. Where is truth?

Best regards

E.

[CJE]

It's both a difficult and touchy issue.
The truth is that the French pilots got 5 officially confirmed victories.
According to eye-witnesses, the C-47s were shot up on the ground, while trying to taxi in the dry bed of the Oran Sebkra - with all men aboard!
That's the problem.
Had the French repelled the US and British landings, we should have known, but a few days later they were on the same side. You probably understand what I mean. No fuss no muss.

To Stephane, our job is not to judge the facts but to expose them. That's exactly what I did and the book was co-authored by Chris Shores, a non-French writer/historian above suspicion.

[Empiricist]

Hi again

Thank you very much for your reply. I agree that the situation in that case is not simple to describe it and the US data do not help too much in order to verify Vichy pilots possible kills. Hard to say what it was – shooting down or strafing the C-47s during their approach? The US Army War College has an interesting memoir of famous US paratrooper Lt. Gen. William P. Yarborough who was on board of one of the C-47s attacked by the D.520s. Maj. Yarborough was G-3 then in Gen. Mark Clark’s staff and he took part in this US fiasco. He told after the war:

We flew very low for a lot of reasons and consequently when we were attacked by the three Dewoitine fighters, we didn’t have far to go to hit the ground but it was enough to wash out the landing gear on the airplane I was in. We were hit broadside by the first pass of the Vichy fighters. And they made two passes, I guess. While we were in the air and they hit something every time they came over and then when we hit the ground, they flew over us one final time and peppered us as we lay on the ground there. The airplanes were a complete loss for a lot of reasons.

That is why it is hard to say what kind of victories had D.520 pilots. Many times I am not a follower of the US manner of describing the Troop Carrier-type aviation heavy losses during WWII none the less it would be extremely hard to call it “air victories” what happened over(?) / on(?) Sebkra d'Oran dry lake.

We have to remember about scale factor. In the Operation Torch circumstances an air drop of 550 paras was "giant" operation. It is not the scale of the ETO airborne actions. Shooting down five C-47s full of the GIs would be air massacre impossible to hold it under cover to date. It would be a massacre with approx. 140 killed paras at once [5 x 28]. As I wrote I hate the USAAF Troop Carrier Command methods to give general public selective loss data but on the other hand democratic system of the USA would protest against embargoed information on five downed C-47s because in the relatively small scale of Operation Torch it would be one of the greatest drama. The GIs’ families would protest against Pentagon and its treating history as a manipulation. Therefore I think that D.520 pilots’ victories are not classic kills, or if you like air victories, but a kind of on-ground destroying the C-47s with average US paratroopers loss. I do not defend my opinion as independence however – all other opinions are welcomed.

BTW -- the US revenge against G.C. III/3 came next day. What was the US paras fiasco (i.e. capturing Oran-La Sénia air base) it was elite 1st Infantry Division “Big Red One” success. The part of G.C. III/3 escaped from its base but other part of the D.520s fleet was destroyed on the ground -- who knows maybe the aircraft attacking the Americans at Sebkra d'Oran were among them? The US Army Signal Corps companies took various pictorials of captured airfields in North Africa. If I am not mistaken the pic I posted below was taken by the US 1st ID at La Sénia air base and it shows a D.520 destroyed over there. I count on the French forumers verification of this pic but digit “5” seems to be G.C. III/3 style. If I am wrong feel free to correct it.

Thank you very much for interesting discuss.

Warm regards

E.

[CJE]

Yes, that was the style of 1st esadrille (SPA 88) tactical code - blue outlined in white. The other escadrille (SPA 69) had a red number upon a white disk.

[Steve49]

Obviously the main problem is what consitutes an aerial claim. It is clear that six French D520's encountered three USAAC C47's flying over the Sebkra d'Oran and all of the transports were forced down.

In Rick Atkinson's 'An Army at Dawn' there is quite a good (if short) description of Operation VILLAIN (the plan being use Paratroopers of the 2-509 PIR to seize Tafaraoui and La Senia airfields). Carried aboard 39 C47's the formation was soon scattered by poor weather and never able to reform. One aircraft landed at Gibraltar, four were interned in Spanish Morocco, two landed at Fez in French Morocco and three are reported as flying over Le Senia and being driven off by AAA. The book says that 'more than a dozen C-47's clustered on the western fringe of the Sebkra d'Oran' and another ten transports dropped their parachutisits in this area before landing at the eastern edge of the Sebkra (where they were taken prisoner). Despite being attacked by French Forces a party of Para's (led by Maj Yarborough) tried to march around the Sebkra and seize Tafaraoui airfield (despite it being some 20 miles away). The going was found to be very hard so after some struggling the party dug in and it commander radioed for some of the C-47's to come and transport them. After siphoning fuel from other transports, three C-47's were launched and loaded the stranded Parachutists, but as the book says 'no sooner had the planes taken off with Yarborough's group aboard for the short hop to Tafaraoui than cannon fire from six French Dewoitine fighters fighters riddled the fuselages. The American pilots spun around lowered their wheels, and crash-landed onto the Sebkra at 130miles per hour. The Dewoitines made three more stafing passes, killing five soldiers and wounding fifteen.'

Obviously this is just extracted from a book and like all history it is only as reliable as its sources (mostly offical ones from the American side, but ones which hardly ignore the total failure of the operation). If it is believed that three C-47's were encountered, then it is clear that the French fighters were successful in intercepting at low level the transports and preventing them and the reinforcements they carried from reaching the airfield. The French pilots might have overclaimed and all of the aircraft may have crash-landed before being shotdown, but claims should be recognised as more than just strafing aircraft abandoned on the ground. The three transports were nolonger available to the invaders, which wouldn't have been the case if the interception hadn't taken part.

Regards

Steve Pegge

[Empiricist]

Steve, in my opinion you do feel the problem very good. As it seems to me the C-47s were destroyed by the D.520s in very specific circumstances of NOE flight, approach and/or taxiing. The question is how many C-47s were strafed in fact and destroyed really by Vichy pilots? I am a pilot so I can imagine how hard it was to judge for the French pilot honestly "did I destroy this C-47 in the air during NOE flight or on the two-point (by main landing gear only) touching the ground?" Wartime is not good time for the idealists however and military PR machine gives sometimes more victories than in fact took place.

Thanks for posting a book text. If I am not mistaken also our forumer Mr. David C. Isby published in his book Capt. John Evans' memoirs related to this flight. He was one of the C-47 pilots attacked then by the D.520s.

Christian-Jacques -- thank you very much for your comment to the D.520 pic.

Best regards

E.