Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943

[veltro]

Originally Posted by Oberst

Reading some of the reports of the P-40 pilots on that day, they seem to indicate that the 109's went into a luftberry and the Mc.202's did the same in the opposite direction.

As Gianandrea correctly pointed out in the previous page, no Italian fighters were involved at all in this combat.

The daily operational report of Stato Maggiore coming from Aerosardegna clearly stated the flights made on that 30 July in detail and no combat whatsoever was made.

So we have an ID problem adding to the inflated claims...

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

Just as an aside I will add that according to Christer Bergström a total of 888 German fighters were lost in the Mediterranean theater from November 1942 through May 1943. According to the Strength Report web page for III./JG 77 at http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg77.html this Gruppe lost 67 aircraft "durch Feindeinwirkung" (due to enemy action) in this time period. It suffered 19 additional losses in this category in June 1943 and July 1943. I have no idea how many pilots the unit lost in this time period but it does appear as losses were heavy thus giving credence to the information Arthy has provided that morale was low. It certainly stands to reason that many of its pilots at the time of this particular engagement were probably as inexperienced in aerial combat as the pilots of the 325th FG thus leading to the over claiming involved on the German side and the remarks by the Americans concerning their opponents.

Horrido!

Leo

[yogybär]

Originally Posted by Oberst

I thought that the -40's were doing a low level sweep, if thats the case, the 109's would 'zoom & boom', not go into the circle.

After I read the thread properly, I found out that the Americans came in a 3000meters/9000ft and that the first attack by 109's happened from 6o'clock and the same altitude level.
Also, I propose that if the Germans used the circle, they did it later in the melee as a defensive measure, not as an attack in the beginning .

Are there more interesting details in the US reports you have available?

[Oberst]

From: Checkertails Over Sardinia, pg.72

"1st Lt Walter B 'Bud' Walker of the 317th FS was credited with three kills. During the fight, Walker found himself taking on three Me 109's alone. He shot down two of the attackers, but by then a third Me 109 was firmly on his tail and pounding Walker's P-40 with cannon fire. Flying just above the trees, the American hauled his Warhawk into a tight turn - the Me 109 pilot tried to follow, but his less manoeuverable fighter snap-rolled and crashed into the ground."

It also states: In post mission reports, the enemy fighters did not do the normal "zoom & boom" which would indicate that the first spotted the 109's above. Then it says the 109's instead tried to "turn" with them. It makes no sense to me.

Originally Posted by veltro

So we have an ID problem adding to the inflated claims...

Yes, it would seem to be that way. Reminds me of the "Palms Sunday Massacre".

[leonventer]

Originally Posted by Andrew Arthy

Alex Ragatzu's book would be the best source for this combat.

Attached are the relevant pages.

Source: "Luftwaffe in Sardegna" by Ragatzu, published by Alisea Edizioni, 2010, ISBN: 978-88-902014-3-1, 190 pages

HTH,
Leon Venter